Post by: Fierofool on October 29, 2016, 05:23:35 pm
His Daughter, Leslie Charles, has notified us that Lee wanted us to have his Formula when he passed. He asks that it be raffled or auctioned and the money go to the club treasury. Leslie has sent some pictures of the car. It's been sitting for at least 4 years, apparently in the back yard. It's very dirty on the outside, but it appears the tires are still inflated. It will need a very thorough scrubbing or two. She says that the car was running at the time Lee parked it, so only the usual wake-up things need to be done, like getting all the critter nests out of the hidden places, draining the fuel tank, replacing oil and filter, new battery and a few other things.
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I have a contact name and number where we can go see the car, in the Ellijay or East Ellijay area. I would like someone to go with me to evaluate what we need to do to retrieve the car. It's an automatic, so it will need to be hauled, or pulled very slowly in order to get it to Pat's house. He has agreed to take it in.
We can view the car any days except Monday, but need to make an appointment with our local contact. Leslie will be up from Florida during Thanksgiving week, but we need to be prepared to move it before or no later than that week.
Anyone want to go with me?
Post by: Fierofool on October 29, 2016, 05:48:08 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 30, 2016, 08:20:52 am
Check the spark plug wires and other wiring for chewing. Bare wires can cause fires. For some reason, varmints chew on the wiring.
Donating that car to the club probably saved it from going straight to the crusher.
Post by: Fierofool on October 30, 2016, 08:31:59 am
I think this car was pretty much his daily driver until he became too ill. In that respect, he kept it operational.
Post by: f85gtron on October 30, 2016, 09:01:28 am
Post by: Fierofool on October 30, 2016, 09:17:16 am
Post by: Fierofool on November 14, 2016, 04:57:14 pm
Several of the tires are a little low, but look to be in good condition, but because the car's been sitting for 4 years, mostly inside, but more recently, where it now sits, I wouldn't trust them.
The car has Beechwood cloth interior and it's in pretty good condition. I didn't see any worn spots on the seats. Only a few stains that should come out if the covers were removed and run through a gentle wash cycle. I've actually done this on another set of tan seat covers.
There was a slip-over headrest cover that had shed all it's black foam rubber lining onto the console and seat. The pictures made me wonder if it was home or bathroom to some kind of bigger animal, but that rubber can easily be vacuumed out without issues.
The bad part is that there have been and are mice in the car. The floor is covered with droppings, and when we opened the front compartment, there was a mouse crawling around the master cylinder and spare tire. Amazingly, it didn't have that strong urine smell inside, possibly because moth balls had been placed inside. I would guess there's a nest in the steering column cover above the pedals, but the dash should be removed to inspect wiring and to clean out the HVAC system and ductwork.
Paint probably will be stained, even after a good scrubbing and there's the customary chips in the surface of the hood, around the headlight doors. Heidi tells me that there are other Fiero parts in the garage that will go with the car. Lee's daughter will be coming up during the week of Thanksgiving and we will get the keys and paperwork at that time. The car will need to be rolled down the drive, past a narrow tree-lined curve before loading onto a dolly or trailer.
All body panels are good without any damage from contact with other objects. Heidi said there were some scoops that went with it, but she didn't describe them. I don't know what other parts are in the garage.
Willing to take along a passenger sometime in early December to pick it up and bring it back. Volunteers?
Post by: Drewbdo on November 15, 2016, 03:38:53 pm
Are you planning to tow dolly or trailer? I don't have either at this time, but I can offer help rolling it down the drive way, and someone to talk to on the drive. :) lol
Post by: Fierofool on November 15, 2016, 05:13:02 pm
When we get it I will probably use Roger's dolly and install a couple of good tires on the back of the car. Two of the last 3 Fieros I towed, I had a blowout on the trailer once and on one car, a blowout and then a flat just as I pulled into ThaDriver's shop.
I'm open all Thanksgiving weekend as we're celebrating this coming Saturday.
Post by: Drewbdo on November 16, 2016, 08:14:52 am
What time of day are you thinking, and how long do you think we'd be busy?
Post by: Fierofool on November 16, 2016, 10:27:07 am
Post by: Fierofool on November 26, 2016, 05:12:54 pm
The ignition and trunk keys couldn't be found. The door key, which doesn't open the trunk was the only key we had. There's also a locking gas cap that we will have to deal with. The car has had the steering column replaced with a manual column, so it was in Neutral. Applying power through the cigarette lighter gave the vehicle power, but the trunk release solenoid wouldn't open the trunk.
We inflated the tires to move it out so we could better get it on the tow dolly and replace the dry rotted rear tires for towing. Another obstacle. The car has security lug nuts on each wheel and we couldn't find the lug wrench for them. Lee's daughter's boyfriend has offered to have the car hauled to Lawrenceville via AAA. We will have to make space so it can be offloaded and rolled straight into it's temporary parking place.
We did collect some of Lee's collectable items. The following is a listing of what I brought back. There are more things to pick up when she gets things sorted out and grouped together.
Inventory List:
48 yellow HotWheels 2m4 Fieros. Some with lace wheels, some with 5-spoke. #463
1, 1:18 Silver 85GT Road Signature Collection, Unopened
Small Crystal case with a black #48 and red #86 Track Fieros
HotWheels Pavement Pounders transporter with Exclusive HotWheels Fiero (Special Graphics on side and hood) Item 89850-92
Serial # 1730RE, unopened
84 owner and Maintenance Manuals
Fiero Parking Only metal sign, Unopened
Fiero Blvd aluminum street sign
88 Pontiac Product Literature in loose-leaf binder (all models)
Fiero, Pontiac's Potent Mid-Engine Sports Car by Gary Witzenburg, unopened
1988 Pontiac Road Cars magazine, unopened
1988 Pontiac Road Cars magazine, unopened
Pontiac Fiero 1984-1988 magazine, Brooklands Road Test, includes Turbo, GTU and new model reports, unopened
Hot Rod Magazine, March 84 Featuring 140 mph Indy, sealed
88 Owners Manual
Fiero Connection 2nd Quarter 1998 featuring Marianna Martin's "White Horse" and First Ever Fiero Factory Swap Meet
1988 Fiero Helms Service Manual
Haynes Manual containing information specific to this car.
Fiero Owners Magazine, 3 magazines, 1st Quarter, 2nd and 3rd Quarter, and 4th Quarter 1999
Fiero Store Catalogs & Price Lists, 1995-1998
Several iron-on and sew-on patches
One pair of 88 Notchback 3ngine vents with fasteners.
If anyone has any knowledge of the value of any of these items or would like to do some research to find out, please let us know what you find.
There are other Fiero models, with Fiero Transporters, Indy's, IMSA's and a large glass-front wood display case with a number of these in a beautiful display, suitable for wall hanging. That remains to be picked up later. There are also tools and Fiero parts.
Post by: GrannyLinda on November 27, 2016, 06:16:55 am
And There Will Be A Place For It.
The Day Before Would Nice.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on November 27, 2016, 08:22:49 am
For the locking gas cap, it's cheap and easy to replace. The ones I've seen have fingers sticking to each side to hold it in place. Cut (not drill) on either side of the lock in the part you grab about half an inch out from the lock down to the fingers. Bend the fingers down on both sides. Remove cap. Altertatively, cut the sides of the grab part by the lock off. Remove lock. Use 2 small flat-head screw drivers to release the fingers. If you want to cheat, buy a locking cap to practice on. They're $8-$28.
For the trunk and ignition, a competent locksmith can make keys for cars of that era, without removing the tumblers or the lock cylinder. Of course, it's like $60 per key.
For the locking lug nuts, most of them just require a funky socket. As long as these nuts are of that type, as opposed to the variation that have other things holding them in place, you're good. There used to be a tool sold that was basically a socket with a bunch of small spring-loaded rods in it; you'd just push this special socket onto the nut you wanted to remove, and it would make itself fit. Barring this, you can always spot-weld an old wrench to the nuts temporarily. The the nuts and wrench will be destroyed, but they are very replaceable. Another alternative is to just get the proper socket. There was a thread on PFF a year or so ago, where someone mentioned a company that can provide the socket for your security nuts.
We used to set our broken sockets aside, so that when people brought their cars in with the rusted, stripped lug nuts, we could weld the broken sockets to the lug nuts, spray them with penetrating oil, and remove. The customer was told beforehand that they would be charged for a set of lug bolts, a set of lug nuts, and misc hardware (a new socket). The heat helps loosen the nut, anyway. The welds must be done quickly, and you should really cover the rest of the wheel. I'm not a good welder, and sometimes there are little pieces of weld splatter.
If you use one of those sockets with the rods, they aren't designed for a lot of torque. You need to make sure that the nut isn't rusted on. Don't (for example) put an 8-foot pipe on your wrench. I don't know how much torque this is, but I used some pieces of 2x4, some chain, and an 8-foot bar to straighten a steel bumper on an '85 LTD.
Post by: Fierofool on November 27, 2016, 09:07:09 am
The locking gas cap is a Stant. Instructions printed on it say to turn the key 1/4 turn counterclockwise then back, then remove the cap. Otherwise the cap will just spin, so I don't know how we would locate the fingers other than looking at another Fiero filler to see where they'd be located. They had a Stant key for another vehicle, but it wouldn't work on this one.
Post by: Raydar on November 27, 2016, 09:31:31 am
I just hammered a socket on, and turned them off.
The socket may be in the trunk, although I suspect you need the wheels off before the trunk can be accessed.
Just because a manual column is installed, I can think of no reason for the car to be left in neutral. (Did I read that right?)
Post by: Fierofool on November 27, 2016, 01:22:44 pm
We did inflate the tires, so the rollback should be able to load it provided the tires don't have a fast leak. If someone's there, there's a compressor available.
I found the socket tshark was referring to. It's a Gator Grip socket. Pat, get one of these on order, please.
http://www.brandsport.com/gatr-20120mo.html?cmp=fwgs2011&gclid=CLrgk53FydACFUg2gQodlz0MQg
This site has lots of other good stuff, too.
Post by: Roger on November 28, 2016, 05:53:35 pm
Post by: Fierofool on November 28, 2016, 06:34:00 pm
Post by: Fierofool on December 18, 2016, 07:57:49 pm
Post by: TopNotch on December 19, 2016, 02:46:19 pm
Post by: TopNotch on December 20, 2016, 10:03:51 am
Post by: TopNotch on December 21, 2016, 10:03:54 am
Post by: Fierofool on December 21, 2016, 11:28:29 am
Post by: Fierofool on December 23, 2016, 09:58:50 am
Post by: pgackerman on December 23, 2016, 02:45:07 pm
AAA offers a delivery service?
How does that work?
Post by: TopNotch on December 23, 2016, 03:05:02 pm
Post by: Fierofool on December 23, 2016, 10:06:46 pm
Post by: Raydar on December 23, 2016, 11:03:21 pm
Mine were on *very tightly* and they came right off. I'll go downstairs and see what size I used.
Edit - The only socket I could find that looks like it's been hammered upon was a 3/4" deep well.
I don't remember using a deep well to get the nuts off, however.
Oh well....
Post by: Fierofool on December 24, 2016, 09:42:11 am
The tires on the car will inflate and hold air for a while. They have a compressor at the house so there's no immediate need to remove the wheels, but it will eventually be required. We need to get a good set of tires to go on it. Maybe some used ones will suffice.
Post by: pgackerman on December 24, 2016, 05:06:49 pm
Hmmmm... If someone had a 100 mile delivery service, and someone else had a hundred mile delivery service, (and so on), it would be possible to have a car delivered almost anywhere...
Post by: Fierofool on December 24, 2016, 07:35:38 pm
Post by: TopNotch on December 31, 2016, 10:37:20 pm
Post by: TopNotch on January 01, 2017, 04:10:32 pm
So I think it'll clean up pretty good, with a lot of elbow grease.
The I tried hooking up 12v to the cigarette lighter socket and pushing the trunk popper switch. The trunk didn't pop, but the lights dimmed quite a bit when I pressed the switch. That tells me that the ground to the solenoid is good, but possibly not enough current is getting to it. So sometime I'll try tapping into one of the thick always hot wires under the dash and try it that way. The lights also dimmed quite a bit if I pressed the break pedal. So the cigarette lighter wiring is pretty wimpy.
Post by: TopNotch on January 08, 2017, 04:24:21 pm
Makes me wonder what's on the other side of the firewall. And no, I still don't have the trunk open.
Post by: pgackerman on January 08, 2017, 05:39:03 pm
Folks,
I have an idea to get the New Fiero in the Stall back on the road. Basically:
* Club sells the car to someone with the skill to rebuild it for $1.
* The buyer can do what he wants with the car, short of parting it out.
* When the buyer sells the car in a few years, he donates some portion of the sale to the club. I'm guessing this amount will be anywhere from $100 to $1000.
I know an ideal buyer. He works at AutoZone in Evans, is a mechanic in the Army Reserve, built his MR2 up to 500HP+ before he sold it, is putting an LS engine in his wife's Lexus, put keyless into my Fieros, and is an all around decent guy.
He's also busy and can't take the car now, which is fine since the club needs time to digest this idea.
The Fiero he completes might not be stock, but it will be running. Which is what we all want.
What do y'all think?
Post by: Fierofool on January 08, 2017, 06:11:45 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 08, 2017, 06:20:26 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVIERA-Steering-Suspension-Control-Module-GM-ID-No-16215659-Tested-/380730997700?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
Looks like it was used for multiple purposes. Anti-theft module.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-94-95-96-97-98-99-EIGHTY-EIGHT-THEFT-LOCKING-MODULE-578237/162201644848?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3Dd3ddea8b27724f0fbde787ca44bb900a%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D351710521186
Post by: TopNotch on January 08, 2017, 06:50:21 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 08, 2017, 07:25:37 pm
Post by: TopNotch on January 08, 2017, 07:33:29 pm
Definitely not stock.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 08, 2017, 07:51:18 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 08, 2017, 08:52:34 pm
I've got lots of things related to this car that needs to be discussed at the January meeting. Maybe we should call Maria and ask her to be sure we get the rearmost 2 or 3 tables so we're not having people walk past us and we're not sitting up in the middle of everyone. I have several boxes of show and tell stuff that I picked up with the car.
Post by: ron768 on January 08, 2017, 09:20:58 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 08, 2017, 09:27:33 pm
Post by: Raydar on January 08, 2017, 10:51:06 pm
I can't read the part number of the ECM, but it looks like the last number is a 7. The others... ?
Looking at Tunercat, I came up with a bunch of ECMs that end in "7". But only one that appears like it could be a match. 16183247. Actually sort of looks like the part number on the label.
With that as the best guess, I came up with the following...
16183247
95 Buick / Pontiac L36, 3800, V6
16183247
94 - 95 Buick / Pontiac L27, 3800, V6
16183247 or 16197428
94 - 95 Buick / Pontiac L67, 3800, Supercharged
All of these would seem to indicate that the car houses a 3800, series 1, of some sort. Possibly supercharged.
Here's a "flipped" pic of the ECM. See if it looks like what I said, or see if you can come up with an alternative.
(You can most likely do a "save as" and then reopen it in Windows Photo Viewer. it will allow you to expand it.)
Post by: Fierofool on January 08, 2017, 11:25:03 pm
Post by: Raydar on January 09, 2017, 06:02:03 am
I'm about to go to work, so it will be later.
Post by: Fierofool on January 09, 2017, 08:01:35 am
Post by: TopNotch on January 09, 2017, 09:42:49 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 09, 2017, 10:14:26 pm
Post by: Raydar on January 09, 2017, 11:06:39 pm
That's all I can find.
http://workshop-manuals.com/buick/park_avenue/v6-3.8l_vin_k/powertrain_management/prom_programmable_read_only_memory/component_information/technical_service_bulletins/all_technical_service_bulletins_for_prom_programmable_read_only_memory/recall_stall_on_deceleration/general_information/page_7740/
Post by: Fierofool on January 10, 2017, 07:48:32 am
Post by: Raydar on January 10, 2017, 02:31:51 pm
Would that transmission be non-electronic?
Doubtful. By the early 90s, most everything was electronic.
I'll poke around and see if I can find anything different.
Post by: Fierofool on January 10, 2017, 09:33:54 pm
4T60-E
1994-1999 Buick Century
1992-1997 Buick LeSabre 3800 V6, L27
1991-1996 Buick Park Avenue V6 3.8 L
It began in 1991 and was phased out in 1997 in favor of the 4T65 with the 4T60E-HD being produced only in 1996 for use with the 3800 SC. Apparently there is a good selection of stall speed programs in this trans. Wikipedia gives an example of this transmission in a 95 Beretta would have a stall speed of 1650 rpm but the Park Avenue stall speed would be 2095 rpm. Assuming that's a programming change rather than a parts change within the transmission. There were as many as 12 gearing ratios for this trans, depending upon car and motor combination.
Post by: Fierofool on January 15, 2017, 09:57:09 pm
Pat also discovered that his security lug wrench from his 88 Duke will fit the lugs on the Formula. I also have one from the Fastback Formula and one from the Lil Duke Coupe. All 3 are the same pattern. Neither of the Gorilla Grabber Sockets would remove the lugs.
Members present voted to hire a locksmith to open the trunk and board members present approved spending more than the authorized $50. We decided that the ignition switch could be removed and replaced for less than $50 and that task may be done at a Tech Day.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 15, 2017, 10:16:08 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 15, 2017, 10:19:41 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 15, 2017, 10:22:52 pm
Post by: Fierofool on January 15, 2017, 10:48:08 pm
Post by: TopNotch on January 16, 2017, 07:51:46 am
Post by: pgackerman on January 26, 2017, 12:34:47 pm
Did y'all ever get in the engine bay?
Whats it got?
Post by: TopNotch on February 11, 2017, 05:04:28 pm
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 10:23:42 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 25, 2017, 10:36:32 am
The decklid vents are solid?
That's a 3800SC? I've seen stage 1, 2, 2.5, and 3, and this doesn't look like those. Mayby just a 3800? Or a 3.8?
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 10:43:59 am
Post by: Fierofool on February 25, 2017, 12:37:04 pm
_1.jpg)
It looks like he mounted the engine dogbone at the front of the engine due to the high mount alternator. Wonder how he attached it to the firewall.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 25, 2017, 04:07:14 pm
How strong is that firewall
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 04:37:59 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 25, 2017, 04:46:00 pm
The Fiero behind this one almost looks like a reflection.
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 04:52:11 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 25, 2017, 04:56:01 pm
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 05:15:28 pm
Ah. Is this not a current/recent pic?
Took it today.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 25, 2017, 05:20:45 pm
With my luck, by the time I get down there, this project will be done.
Post by: Fierofool on February 25, 2017, 06:24:31 pm
Post by: TopNotch on February 25, 2017, 07:28:59 pm
So, the front bumper of the other car is on your silver Formula.
Yes, to repair this boo-boo. Actually, the bumper, "egg crate", and bumper cover were taken from the "parts car".
Post by: Raydar on February 26, 2017, 11:52:33 am
Post by: Drewbdo on February 27, 2017, 09:13:39 am
Post by: TopNotch on February 27, 2017, 10:08:52 am
Post by: Fierofool on February 27, 2017, 11:57:00 am
Post by: ron768 on February 27, 2017, 02:47:08 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 27, 2017, 06:11:54 pm
Post by: TopNotch on April 22, 2017, 09:01:04 pm
Today I decided to start the process of dropping the cradle on my parts car. I disconnected everything on the top side of the engine, put it's original steering column back in, and then decided that it wouldn't be a good idea to drop the cradle where the car now sits. It sits on the part of our RV driveway that has broken off from the rest, and is now tilted towards the neighbor's yard. I could just see the cradle on my home-made cradle dolly, with casters, rolling over to the neighbors yard. So I decided that the car has to move.
So I decided to work on the club Formula for a while. First I put in that trunk lock that I had bought a while back. It works fine. Then I decoded to replace the ignition switch with the one I bought a while back.
Now I had this battery in my garage that I had replaced over a year ago, and put on a battery rejuvenator, where it's sat all this time. So I put it in the Formula, thinking that maybe I could spin the engine and circulate the oil. Turns out that the battery is as good as new. The engine spun good, with good oil pressure. So I stole a spark plug wire from my parts car and replaced the broken one. BTW, the frayed wire I found in the center console doesn't look like anything to do with the engine.
After some sputtering, the car started up and ran. It sounds like a cylinder is missing -- could be my replacement spark plug wire -- but it runs. Maybe I'll put some injector cleaner in it tomorrow and see what that does. But now, at least, I can move it if I have to.
I also had a copy made of the one door key we had, so now I have two complete sets of keys to the car.
Oh, yeah, one strange thing about the car. The steering column is a manual transmission column. but the transmission stick is also connected. So to turn the key to the lock position, you not only have to put the car in park, but you also have to push down the lever that manual cars have.
Post by: TopNotch on April 23, 2017, 08:39:55 pm
Today I put some fresh gas in it, and some injector cleaner. It had a locking gas cap on it, but you can easily remove those by drilling a hole about an inch from the center of the lock, putting something in the hole, and turning. I put a non-locking cap on it.
I bought a spark plug wire kit -- the kind where you make up your own wires, and made one for the wire that was broken. Eventually I'll replace all the wires, because these are good 8mm wires.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on April 23, 2017, 08:44:39 pm
Post by: TopNotch on April 23, 2017, 08:55:24 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on April 23, 2017, 08:57:28 pm
Post by: Fierofool on April 23, 2017, 09:12:47 pm
How easy is it to get to the injectors on that engine? Maybe we need to eventually pull them and have FIC clean them for us. I can see one of the fuel rails, but is the front one easily accessible?
With that coil pack sitting where it is, there may be some tracking as a result of dirt buildup that's causing the skip.
Post by: TopNotch on April 23, 2017, 09:23:36 pm
I haven't checked on how easy the injectors are to get to.
I vacuumed whatever crud in the engine compartment I could get to with my shop vac.
Post by: Raydar on April 23, 2017, 09:30:34 pm
If it's like the SC engine, the injectors are *right there*. Should come off with the fuel rail.
My fastback, that I converted to manual, still has the automatic column.
I'd probably be willing to trade if you want to put an automatic column in that car. The turn signal switch requires a little force to activate, but otherwise is fine. (It's been that way forever. I just haven't bothered with it. I even have a replacement switch that I got from Don, several years ago.)
Post by: Fierofool on April 25, 2017, 04:58:11 pm
Post by: TopNotch on April 26, 2017, 04:44:57 pm
Post by: Fierofool on April 26, 2017, 07:32:55 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on April 26, 2017, 07:34:06 pm
Post by: TopNotch on April 29, 2017, 08:38:40 pm
But there's a lot of engine noise in the cabin. I wonder if this could be the fault...
The turnbuckle is solid mounted. I wonder if it's even necessary, since there are two struts holding the engine at the front. The struts are fastened to a bar or pipe mounted where the deck lid tortion bars used to be (which is why it needs gas struts to hold it up).
Here's one of the struts...
The other strut is in front of the ignition brick...
The check engine light is on when it runs, but I don't know how to get the codes. Where the ALDL connector goes, it has a connector that fits my OBD2 reader, but it only has 4 wires going to it. The OBD2 reader says "no link" if I try to read codes. I'll try searching online for a way to clear the trouble codes, and see if they come back if I can clear them.
Post by: Fierofool on April 29, 2017, 09:52:31 pm
That front setup looks like it could be the source of cabin noise
Post by: TopNotch on April 29, 2017, 10:42:59 pm
One other thing -- the (aftermarket) radio plays, but has a loose connection. If you just touch any button, the radio may turn off, and then turn on with the next touch. And there was a CD in the radio. An unknown group called Tangerine Dream, and the album is called Melrose.
Post by: TopNotch on May 01, 2017, 11:10:15 am
Actually, the most annoying noise is the intake suction -- it doesn't have a "water separator" in the intake, and the suction noise is quite loud. And the exhaust noise is rather quiet for a Fiero -- I think it should be louder. I wonder what kind of muffler it has, to make it that quiet?
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 01, 2017, 12:46:50 pm
If it's just noise, I don't see the firewall insulation. Maybe it isn't clear in the pictures, or I'm looking in the wrong place. That insulation cuts down on noise. Other than the intake, is the engine noisy outside the car? What sort of noise is being heard in the cabin? Intake? Exhaust? Internals? Accessories? Mechanics have a stethoscope that can be used to identify noises. Some things, like that dipstick handle could be too close and hitting the firewall; or, something else could be hitting against the engine, if proper clearances weren't allowed for.
If it's vibration, I'd recommend starting with the engine itself. It seems that the engine is running smoothly, but is it? I'd then check the mounts, both engine and transmission. Is the rubber or poly all good? If they're solid-mounted, that could be the issue.
Post by: TopNotch on May 02, 2017, 12:20:42 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 02, 2017, 01:52:31 pm
Supposedly all vehicles beginning in 97 switched to OBD2, but my 97 Dakota would flash codes in the odometer by cycling the key rapidly. GM wasn't the only one with the oddballs.
Post by: Raydar on May 02, 2017, 04:45:14 pm
I've been studying the diagnostic connector in the 3800 Formula. It's actually a special GM OBD1.5 connector, that lies in a "no man's land" between OBD1 and OBD2. Fortunately, I found an article (https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/computer-diagnostics-tuning-36/scan9495-free-obd1-scan-app-93-94-95-lt1-874306/) on line that discusses this, and how to scan it. Looks like I'm going to have to make an adapter.
I've got an AutoXRay that does OBD1 and OBD2. Came with a cable that looks like an OBD2 connector, but it's obviously different. Might that be something that you need? It also scanned a 95 Toyota Tundra that had what looked like an OBD2 connector.
It also has the usual OBD1 ALDL connector.
Post by: TopNotch on May 02, 2017, 05:17:02 pm
I've got an AutoXRay that does OBD1 and OBD2. Came with a cable that looks like an OBD2 connector, but it's obviously different. Might that be something that you need? It also scanned a 95 Toyota Tundra that had what looked like an OBD2 connector.
It also has the usual OBD1 ALDL connector.
Sounds like it would work. This will also work, if all you have is OBD1...
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 02, 2017, 06:09:21 pm
Post by: f85gtron on May 02, 2017, 08:31:23 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 02, 2017, 08:48:47 pm
Post by: TopNotch on May 17, 2017, 02:24:45 pm
Post by: f85gtron on May 17, 2017, 02:31:55 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 17, 2017, 03:48:27 pm
A 50/50 mix of white vinegar and bottled water sprayed on the carpet with a spray bottle will help to neutralize it. There's also a product called Smelleze that I think is activated charcoal that will absorb the smell and neutralize it. The car needs to be closed up for a few days for either to work. The water and vinegar will also need to be aired out, but the smell goes away pretty quickly.
She had put mothballs in it to run the mice out. They were put in there after Andrew and I first visited to look at the car. When I returned, I also put some of them in the front compartment. I think they went down under the spare because that's where the mouse was going. There might also be some underneath the seat that could have rolled under there when the car was drawn up onto the flatbed.
Post by: Roger on May 17, 2017, 04:04:00 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 24, 2017, 10:44:34 am
Post by: Tha Driver on May 24, 2017, 12:14:59 pm
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
Custom Fiberglass Parts (http://angelonearth.net/customfiberglass/)
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2017, 06:24:56 pm
I wouldn't leave an apple (or milk, or tomato juice, which also work) in the car, due to moisture concerns.
You can finish with an ozone machine.
Post by: Fierofool on May 29, 2017, 11:45:15 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 17, 2017, 06:21:54 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 19, 2017, 10:43:20 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 19, 2017, 01:21:03 pm
Post by: MikeMac on June 19, 2017, 08:04:11 pm
Mike has a scanner that reads OBDI and OBDII. He said it has all kinds of adapters for the cable. I think it will do it in real time. It's possible it will scan the ECM and read out while the car is being driven.It is a Snap On Blue Point scanner from the 90's. It should work on the 3800 ECM that is in the car.
Post by: Fierofool on June 20, 2017, 10:31:49 pm
Quote" There are other Fiero models, with Fiero Transporters, Indy's, IMSA's and a large glass-front wood display case with a number of these in a beautiful display, suitable for wall hanging. That remains to be picked up later. There are also tools and Fiero parts. "End Quote"
All that is gone. They don't know where it went. All the models, the glass-front display case, everything. Heidi had taken some things to her house in a rush to empty the house for closing, so she will look through everything.
The following is what I picked up today.
Fiero Blvd. Aluminum Sign
Fiero Parking Only sign on PVC pole
Beechwood(?) auxiliary gauge pod
Ignition spark tester-Unused but old
AC Delco GM Code Reader Key on original card
Underdash radio harness for subwoofer option
Beechwood(?) overhead console with performance sound control
Gray overhead console with performance sound control
New ignition switch cylinder with keys
New pair of door lock cylinders with keys
1 Pair notchback tail lights
New 3-light sequential turn signal kit for notchback
120 MPH inner instrument panel cluster with gauges-lens in rough condition
Beechwood(?) right and left seatbelt guides. Repairable
Container of instrument panel bulb holders with bulbs
Small jar of overhead console light lenses. At least a dozen
New-Door hinge pin kit for 2 doors
Plastic Ram Air V6 body emblem
2 Fisher Body door sill inserts
1 Beechwood(?) left lower door sill trim that fits around emergency brake-Unbroken
Container of assorted screws, nuts, fasteners and wire harness clips.
Post by: f85gtron on June 21, 2017, 12:00:17 am
Post by: GTXVette on June 21, 2017, 07:00:22 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 21, 2017, 08:05:51 am
There had been a good collection of old style (30's era) car carriers with Fieros in them. Many of them still in their boxes, so that's how they were sold. The Fieros weren't added by Lee. He had a wall mount display case about 4 ft. square with carriers and individual cars and other memorabilia in it. Lots of things that would probably be desirable collector items. There had been tools, an air compressor, and much more, but that was all gone. It's possible Leslie gave the tools, etc to here boyfriend. We had discussed that on an earlier visit. Hopefully Lee's girlfriend does have the collectables at her house.
We don't have your phone number in our contact information.
Post by: TopNotch on June 25, 2017, 12:59:37 pm
Anyhow, if I set the machine for 1994 VIN L or 1995 VIN L, it says there are no DTC codes in the ECM. If I set it to 1993 VIN L, I get a boatload of DTC codes, including one for PROM error and some that don't make any sense. I'm inclined to think that the 1993 result is closer to the truth.
If I set it to 1995 VIN K, it says that it can't read the system.
And in any case I have to use wires, as in this picture, because the OBD2 connector only works with OBD2.
Post by: GTXVette on June 25, 2017, 08:23:54 pm
I do know the systems must be all 1 or 2. cross use is possible but the Parameters of the systems must be known and 2 reads more and different sensors than 1.
these parts have ID numbers so you can find out what years each system is. so finding the parameters of each system 1or2 can be read with a multimeter and can be Aligned that way. you may can add the OBD 2 sensors to the system and then use an obd2 computer, I think
Post by: Fierofool on June 25, 2017, 09:47:13 pm
Pat, I have the Helms Manual that Lee used to do the install if you want to come get it. I think it has detailed notes of his wiring pinouts.
If you will pull the wheels from the Formula, I have ordered some used tires for it. I can have them mounted when they come in, and you can also carry the replacement hood back with you.
Post by: TopNotch on June 25, 2017, 11:17:58 pm
Post by: GTXVette on June 26, 2017, 07:34:30 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 27, 2017, 06:12:18 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 27, 2017, 06:49:35 pm
Post by: GTXVette on June 27, 2017, 07:02:54 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 04, 2017, 12:22:51 am
Post by: TopNotch on August 04, 2017, 10:11:13 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 04, 2017, 05:25:50 pm
Post by: TopNotch on August 05, 2017, 09:11:38 am
Unrelated question, but will your yellow car be ready for RFTH?I hope so!
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 20, 2017, 06:26:02 pm
Post by: TopNotch on March 17, 2018, 05:13:28 pm
Post by: TopNotch on March 17, 2018, 08:48:03 pm
Post by: Fierofool on March 17, 2018, 09:04:22 pm
DUH! I forgot that the formula is a 3800, not a 2.8. Sorry.
Post by: TopNotch on March 19, 2018, 07:57:16 am
And BTW, the engine, or at least the throttle body, is a '96, not '95 or earlier. In '96, they changed the throttle body, and therefore the TPS. The car has a '96 TPS. I don't think it can be later than '96 because of the OBD 1.5 system.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 19, 2018, 08:11:50 am
Just my $0.02. I'm not the expert.
Post by: GTXVette on March 19, 2018, 08:36:16 am
Post by: Fierofool on March 19, 2018, 09:44:22 am
These things come in handy to prevent other damage. Pennock's pros say that pulling a plug wire while the engine is running can damage the ICM. They're a little more costly on the DIS engines than on the distributor engines.
Judging by what we found in the Formula Fastback's fuel tank, I'm skeptical of the condition of the 3800 tank. It had been sitting about as long as the fastback.
Pat, look through Lee's notes he has inserted into the service manual. He was pretty detailed on his conversion. The throttle body information and other surprises may be included.
Post by: Raydar on March 19, 2018, 10:40:49 am
...Pennock's pros say that pulling a plug wire while the engine is running can damage the ICM. They're a little more costly on the DIS engines than on the distributor engines.
I have heard that. Don't know, from experience. But DIS ignition (assuming it's NOT failed) can really light you up. (The Ogre's words were "potentially lethal".)
(Subliminal message: be careful.)
OTOH, I have seen a fried coil pack apparently caused by a shorted (burned through on the exhaust manifold) plug wire.
It was my mother-in-law's Ranger truck, but still...
Post by: TopNotch on March 19, 2018, 10:43:23 am
Pennock's pros say that pulling a plug wire while the engine is running can damage the ICM.My procedure was to pull a wire, start the engine, stop the engine, replace that wire, and go to the next one. I don't monkey with spark plug wires on a running engine.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 19, 2018, 06:15:43 pm
Post by: GTXVette on March 19, 2018, 08:19:34 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 19, 2018, 08:23:51 pm
Post by: GTXVette on March 20, 2018, 08:21:32 am
Post by: Raydar on March 20, 2018, 10:45:32 am
Post by: Fierofool on March 20, 2018, 11:35:08 am
Mel's Dad had an old telephone generator. It would actually light up an incandescent bulb. I've heard some interrogators used those, connected to the toes of the interrogatee.
Something that can curtail a man's springtime fancy is to get hold of an ignition spark while leaning against the car body with the pelvis.
Post by: TopNotch on March 20, 2018, 01:11:12 pm
Post by: GTXVette on March 20, 2018, 03:07:44 pm
Post by: Roger on March 20, 2018, 04:34:20 pm
Post by: TopNotch on March 24, 2018, 06:14:49 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 24, 2018, 08:31:46 pm
I don't know about that AC compressor, but some AC compressors have a clutch behind the pulley. That clutch loves to go bad.
What else is on that belt, other than the drive pulley?
Post by: TopNotch on March 24, 2018, 09:53:12 pm
What else is on that belt, other than the drive pulley?Water pump, alternator, AC compressor, tensioner, and what appears to be a pulley to fake the original power steering pump. Even without the stick, the noise is definitely louder on the firewall side of the engine, where the AC compressor is. And that's the only thing on that side of the engine.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 24, 2018, 10:32:52 pm
Was the noise there before replacing the plugs? Were either of the plugs on that side?
Post by: TopNotch on March 24, 2018, 10:45:23 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 24, 2018, 10:50:11 pm
The reason I asked about the plugs was to see if possibly something may have been disturbed in that area. Probably the engine was running poorly enough that you couldn't have heard this sound.
Post by: TopNotch on March 24, 2018, 11:10:43 pm
Post by: HarryT on March 25, 2018, 02:14:01 am
Harry
Post by: Raydar on March 25, 2018, 02:19:54 pm
...at least if the clutch works the way I think it does.
Post by: TopNotch on March 25, 2018, 06:40:49 pm
Post by: Fierofool on March 25, 2018, 07:35:35 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 25, 2018, 11:05:46 pm
Post by: TopNotch on April 21, 2018, 04:34:54 pm
The part number on it is the correct part number for a 96 Buick compressor, so I bought a new one off Ebay. Only $35 bucks more than a delete pulley would have cost, so why not?
Post by: TopNotch on May 05, 2018, 10:59:55 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 05, 2018, 11:47:36 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2018, 07:34:47 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 14, 2018, 08:43:27 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on December 01, 2018, 08:59:35 am
Post by: TopNotch on December 01, 2018, 11:05:56 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on December 01, 2018, 11:13:06 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 29, 2019, 10:06:34 pm
Post by: NoMad on March 29, 2019, 11:36:49 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 01, 2019, 09:49:50 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 09, 2019, 05:37:00 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 09, 2019, 07:19:17 pm
The car was being started and run once in a while -- even driven around the bl0ock a couple of times.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 09, 2019, 07:21:23 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 15, 2019, 09:21:31 am
Post by: TopNotch on June 16, 2019, 10:09:55 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 16, 2019, 10:19:43 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 16, 2019, 10:48:58 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 17, 2019, 07:52:11 pm
Of course, limp mode can cause the transmission to behave oddly.
There is the old disconnect a sensor to see if things change trick. Likely the MAP sensor or TPS.
Post by: TopNotch on July 02, 2019, 05:27:44 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 02, 2019, 06:21:56 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 02, 2019, 08:32:12 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 02, 2019, 08:35:04 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 02, 2019, 08:39:41 pm
Did you ever hear back from Ryan?Nope.
Post by: TopNotch on July 12, 2019, 04:14:55 pm
I found a broken (chewed) wire coming from the firewall connector to the ECM, and soldered it back together. No change in performance, but all the gauges seem to be working now. I honestly can't remember which gauge didn't work before, but they all work now.
You may recall that I had replaced the throttle position sensor, but it still seems like it isn't working. I'm trying to find a diagram of the ECM, so I can check the continuity of the wiring between the TPS and the ECM.
Edit: I found a diagram online. It shows the TPS going to pins F1, E5, and E6 of the ECM. I just have to figure out where those pins are.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 12, 2019, 06:04:19 pm
I read somewhere that the ECU will run in limp mode without that module. If the module was unplugged, would there be a change?
I'm curious how the plugs look. Do we know that it's running on all cylinders?
Post by: TopNotch on July 12, 2019, 07:37:15 pm
Actually, the ECM/ECU is called the Powertrain Control Module in the diagram I found, so I guess we should call it the PCM. It controls both the engine and the automatic transaxle (which this car has one of). I will attempt to check the continuity of various wires this weekend.
BTW, the diagram I found is for a 94-95 Buick, Oldsmobile, or Pontiac with a L36 engine (3800). Sounds like the correct one to me.
Post by: Fierofool on July 12, 2019, 08:04:18 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 12, 2019, 08:22:00 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 12, 2019, 09:37:56 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 12, 2019, 09:45:02 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 13, 2019, 07:33:43 pm
Today before the meeting I checked the continuity between the TPS connector and the PCM connector. All wires good.
I re-connected the PCM connector but left the TPS connector off and started the car. It ran exactly the same as with the TPS connected.
After the meeting I turned the key on and checked the reference voltage at the TPS connector -- good.
Then I plugged it back onto the TPS, and measured resistance at the PCM connector. Infinity.
So I removed the TPS to see if it might be bad. And then I discovered the problem. Two of the pins on it were bent. Here's the thing. While the engine is a 94-95 type, the throttle body is DEFINITELY a 96 model, because that's the only TPS that will fit it. And while the connector will fit that TPS, it's a loose fit, and if you're not careful, you can push it on crooked and bend the pins.
So I straightened the pins, made sure I could plug the connector on without bending them, and then put everything back together.
Now the car seems to respond properly to the throttle. I still need to fix the coolant system, because the last time i test drove it, it was leaking coolant after a short drive. But I think she'll be alive soon.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 13, 2019, 07:37:12 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 13, 2019, 07:40:45 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 13, 2019, 10:36:13 pm
Good work Pat!!
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 13, 2019, 10:44:17 pm
Post by: Raydar on July 13, 2019, 10:50:17 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 14, 2019, 03:13:05 pm
But the engine also sounds like it has a bad lifter. The tapping you hear in this recording seems to be coming from the top area of the engine.
Engine idling (http://gafiero.org/sounds/3800engine.mp3)
Post by: Fierofool on July 14, 2019, 06:08:34 pm
I also have 3 3800 emblems to go on the car. They were part of what came with it. I guess he was going to put one on each side, maybe the quarter windows or C pillar or maybe even on the sides of the front fenders, and one on the rear. I can get this stuff to you Monday if you want them.
Post by: Raydar on July 14, 2019, 06:57:21 pm
...
The tapping you hear in this recording seems to be coming from the top area of the engine.
Engine idling (http://gafiero.org/sounds/3800engine.mp3)
It doesn't sound so bad in the recording. Not to say that it doesn't sound worse in person, though.
I might be inclined to drive it around for a bit and see if things don't "tighten up".
Again... good show. :)
Post by: TopNotch on July 15, 2019, 01:29:56 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 15, 2019, 07:24:07 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 20, 2019, 06:49:02 pm
So I cleaned it up a bit, and drove it around the block. It did better than any previous drive, but it is missing on one cylinder, and I think it's an injector. But the best part is that it didn't overheat or leak.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 20, 2019, 06:59:24 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 20, 2019, 07:16:28 pm
Plenty of power?More power than before. The last time I drove it, I had trouble just backing it into the driveway. This time, I didn't even have to touch the gas pedal It backed into the driveway idling (It's an automatic).
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 20, 2019, 10:21:12 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 21, 2019, 05:14:30 pm
So I jacked up the rear and put it on jack stands and dove in. And there I found the problem. The wire to plug no. 3 was not on the plug, but hanging down. I don't know how that happened, except I may not have pushed the wire on enough. But I pulled that plug anyway. It looked new except a little wet as would be expected. I put in a new one anyway, and made sure all plug wires were on tight.
Then I fired it up. It runs smooth now. Still a little tap-tap (bad lifter?), but no missing.
I may just have to buy this thing (at a big discount due to all the parts and sweat equity I've put in it -- hint, hint), and tag it so I can take it on a decent test drive.
I don't know why, but I was under the impression that it was a Formula. I ran the VIN, and it's a base coupe. Quite an upgrade for a base coupe.
Post by: scottb on July 21, 2019, 05:19:59 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 25, 2019, 10:01:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2019, 10:20:48 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2019, 10:21:44 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 26, 2019, 12:56:16 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 26, 2019, 05:10:04 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 27, 2019, 02:01:26 pm
I ran it until it got good and warm, and the loud tapping didn't come back, but there is tapping.
Now here's the weird thing. I bought a "new' toy on Ebay-- a used Snap-on MTG2500 scanner. It came with cartridges good for cars from 1980 to 2000. To test it, I tried it out on my duke coupe. I have been getting an occasional SES light while idling at a stop light. The MTG2500 said I have an idle air control problem. I started the car and watched it display RPM, throttle position, oxygen rich/lean, etc. So the MTG2500 works perfectly.
I connected it to the club car. It said "NO LINK". i used a meter to check the continuity of the wires between the PCM and the OBD connector. They're all good. I did a little research to make sure the wires go to the correct pins. They do. I tried dialing up different year models on the scanner. Always "NO LINK".
I would really like to know if the car is running properly, but I'm at a loss as to how to tell.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2019, 02:09:05 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 27, 2019, 02:48:18 pm
Isn't the ECU OBD2?OBD 1.5, the "Twilight Zone". The scanner is good for early OBD2, and just for the fun of it, I tried the 1996-2000 cartridges and programmed in a 1996 Park Avenue 3800. No luck.
To use the scanner, you insert the proper year range cartridges (one labeled "Primary", and one labeled "Troubleshooting"), program in a specific model, year, and engine, hook it up, and turn on the key. Then you can start the engine if you want to see "live" data.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2019, 07:51:48 pm
A 1996 is supposed to be OBD2. What happens if you try 1995?
Post by: Fierofool on July 27, 2019, 08:14:39 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2019, 08:18:38 pm
Off and on, there is a scanner on abay.
Post by: TopNotch on July 27, 2019, 08:36:12 pm
Off and on, there is a scanner on abay.That's where I got my MTG2500, and it's one of the best there is. Tomorrow i will put the original PCM back in (I still have the Ebay one in there), and see if it reads.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2019, 09:45:14 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 27, 2019, 10:18:49 pm
I take it you think there is a difference between the two.At least I'm hoping there is, that it will work with the scanner.
Post by: TopNotch on July 28, 2019, 09:56:04 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 28, 2019, 09:58:38 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 28, 2019, 10:07:07 am
Post by: TopNotch on August 01, 2019, 09:36:42 pm
341 Intermittent Camshaft Sensor
350 EST Failure
670 QDM 4 Failure
Since they were "history codes", I figured that not all of them may be relevant now. So I told the machine to clear the codes. The only one that came back is 670 QDM 4 Failure. I did a little searching, and found this:
The QDM 4 code is set if any of those 4 lines are open. Obviously it's not the SES line, because the light is on while the key is on. What I'm thinking is, since the car doesn't have a 2-speed fan, maybe one of those fan control lines was left open.
Now here's the strange thing. Notice that the fan fuse is labeled "Cooling Fan/TCC Fuse". Does that mean that the TCC won't work if either of those lines is open?
Looks like I have a job ahead, checking some circuits.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 01, 2019, 09:50:09 pm
Anyway, that would explain why the SES light was formerly on. In theory, a relay would be added. Nothing needs to be on the other side of the relay.
Post by: Raydar on August 01, 2019, 10:00:20 pm
Like you, I am thinking that one of those fan relays may have been omitted. If so, you can probably jumper that circuit with an appropriate resistor, and fake out the input.
Wasn't it stated that the Check Engine light was always on, when the car was still being driven? You may have gotten the car back to its "original" state.
Regarding the TCC function on that fuse... ya' got me.
Post by: TopNotch on August 02, 2019, 09:54:23 am
The OBD connector has a key plugged into the slot on top if it.
Main menu
Code list
Clear codes
Post by: TopNotch on August 02, 2019, 12:22:34 pm
Wasn't it stated that the Check Engine light was always on, when the car was still being driven? You may have gotten the car back to its "original" state.It's still always on, and has always been always on, any time the key is on.
Post by: Raydar on August 02, 2019, 01:14:26 pm
I thought you might like to see my new toy...
...
Very cool! What all does it do? Just OBD1.5? OBD 1 or 2?
Post by: TopNotch on August 02, 2019, 01:37:48 pm
Very cool! What all does it do? Just OBD1.5? OBD 1 or 2?I just got a new cartridge for it, so now with the right cartridge it will do anything from 1980 to the present. Back in the 80's (and early 90's), when cars first started getting electronic controls, nothing was standardized. Each company had their own standards and connectors. GM had ALDL, Ford had something else, etc. My gizmo came with connectors for a few different companies, but not all of them. And there's a generic one with wires with pins on the ends, and if you can figure out where to plug them, you could test any 80's car with electronic controls.
The new cartridge is for global OBD2, and is supposed to work with cars 1996 up to 2009, and I also got a CAN adapter which is supposed to extend coverage to the present. I haven't tested those yet.
Post by: Raydar on August 02, 2019, 04:54:13 pm
Mine is an AutoXRay. It does OBD1 and OBD2 through 2005, and also comes with an "alternate" OBD2-looking cable that is supposedly for 1.5, as well as a handful of different OBD1 cables.
It does not do CANBUS, but it will read OBD2 data from newer vehicles. (Works fine with my 2010 G6. Haven't tried it on the new truck yet.)
Will yours decode ABS and/or BCM codes? I've been looking for something with that functionality.
Post by: TopNotch on August 02, 2019, 05:41:58 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 02, 2019, 06:09:26 pm
Excellent!
Mine is an AutoXRay. It does OBD1 and OBD2 through 2005, and also comes with an "alternate" OBD2-looking cable that is supposedly for 1.5, as well as a handful of different OBD1 cables.
It does not do CANBUS, but it will read OBD2 data from newer vehicles. (Works fine with my 2010 G6. Haven't tried it on the new truck yet.)
Will yours decode ABS and/or BCM codes? I've been looking for something with that functionality.
A cannabis reader? Should help the police. :)
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 02, 2019, 06:11:21 pm
Wasn't it stated that the Check Engine light was always on, when the car was still being driven? You may have gotten the car back to its "original" state.
That's what I had thought.
Does the Fiero run any differently, now?
Post by: TopNotch on August 04, 2019, 12:47:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 04, 2019, 12:52:32 pm
On the other hand, the wiring is an unknown.
Post by: TopNotch on August 04, 2019, 03:45:47 pm
Now here's what I did, and what I found out. I stripped a little insulation off the appropriate wires, and connected a 22-ohm resistor between "hot in run" and WD12. The QDM error stays cleared if I clear it, BUT the cooling fan runs. This tells me something is wired up backwards. According to the diagram, the AC relay has 12V on one end all the time the ignition is on, so the other end must be grounded to energize it. But the car must have ground applied at all times, and energizes when 12V is applied.
This makes me wonder what else is backwards. Another thing -- where ever the AC relay is, it's not at the usual Fiero location. There are no relays there (no fuel pump relay either).
Post by: Fierofool on August 04, 2019, 05:00:18 pm
Post by: TopNotch on August 04, 2019, 06:00:43 pm
Isn't there a relay near the accumulator that's part of the ac circuit?I'll check that out, but I have some good news. The engine runs smooth now, but was hesitating slightly if I punched the throttle. I ran the trouble shooter on my gizmo, and it gave me a list of symptoms, one of which was hesitation on throttle. I picked that one, and it said the problem could be the mass air flow sensor, which may not set a trouble code. I pulled it out, and sure enough, there was a dust bunny on it. I blew it off, and blew out the passages where it plugs in and replaced it. No hesitation now.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 04, 2019, 06:07:46 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 04, 2019, 06:11:31 pm
The ECU has some control over the AC even on a 87-88 duke Fiero. It cuts out the AC if the idle falls below 600 RPM, or at wide open throttle. I imagine a newer car has even more control over it.
This makes me wonder what else is backwards. Another thing -- where ever the AC relay is, it's not at the usual Fiero location. There are no relays there (no fuel pump relay either).
You can use the old trick of turning on the AC and listening for the click, or turning the key to on, and listening for the FP relay.
In another vehicle, the AC clutch does not engage below a certain RPM. Not an electronic thing. Mechanical. I've always thought that some vehicles cut out the AC on idle and WOT. I first brought that up on an '86 Chevy Sprint. Very annoying.
Post by: TopNotch on August 05, 2019, 01:51:55 pm
I think I'm going to have to take a risk and stick one of my other car's plates on the back and take it for a longer test drive than around the block. You can't really tell how it's doing creeping around the block, and never getting out of first gear (well, once it did get into second gear).
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 05, 2019, 05:49:05 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 05, 2019, 06:28:10 pm
Auburn used to require plate and insurance on all cars other than those in a salvage yard or licensed dealership. Even if it was totaled and on your property. The unincorporated county doesn't.
When I was in office I rewrote the ordinance and got it passed to remove those requirements so service men and women could park their vehicle at home while deployed, without the added expenses.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 05, 2019, 06:33:37 pm
The ECU has some control over the AC even on a 87-88 duke Fiero. It cuts out the AC if the idle falls below 600 RPM, or at wide open throttle. I imagine a newer car has even more control over it.
You are right. There is a signal line to the ECU.
Post by: TopNotch on August 17, 2019, 05:15:10 pm
First a little background. There's a test you can do on an automatic transmission car to judge engine performance without driving it. Just push the brake pedal, put it in gear, and give it some gas. This car had sounded OK right after startup, but after a little while, it sounded like like it was struggling when I did that. That means that after closed loop mode started, it was having trouble. My scanner verified that the trouble was in closed loop mode.
You may recall that among the errors I got with my scanner were EST failure and camshaft position sensor failure. Those errors had come back. Well, EST is Electronic Spark Timing, which means the ICM. So I bought both a new ICM and camshaft position sensor. I got the cheapest ones Rock Auto had, just in case they weren't needed. They came today.
First I replaced the ICM. No change. Then I replaced the camshaft position sensor. Bingo! The SES light went out, and performance is normal.
I guess that means that Lee (previous owner) was driving the car around with a bad camshaft position sensor, and reduced performance.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 17, 2019, 05:23:43 pm
Post by: NoMad on August 19, 2019, 12:01:55 am
Post by: Raydar on August 19, 2019, 07:53:58 am
Post by: TopNotch on August 25, 2019, 12:11:10 pm
There are some things I have to address.
1. I need to fix the turn signals and make sure all lights work properly.
2. There are a few minor suspension klunks I need to check.
3. The brakes are a bit spongy compared to my other Fieros, which are also 88's. But they work.
I had to rig up a second coolant expansion reservoir in the back of the car. There is a radiator cap in the back, which corresponds to the thermostat cap on a stock Fiero, where you can add fluid and burp the car, etc. But because it is a radiator cap, and not a water-tight cap, water can come out from expansion. The car previously had a drip tube rigged up, but that allowed expansion to just drip out, which meant that air would be sucked in when the system cooled. So I added an expansion reservoir, and used a 20 pound radiator cap, so that most of the expansion would go out the front, where the normal 16 pound cap is. It seems to work OK.
One other thing I may address is the way the engine is mounted. Instead of a normal dog bone mounted to the trunk wall, there is a metal rod welded to where the deck lid torque struts are on a normal Fiero (and instead there are gas struts to hold up the deck lid), and there are two dog bone like things connecting that rod to the engine -- one at the front of the engine (passenger side), and one at the rear. This causes more noise and vibration to be transferred into the cabin than you'd get with a proper dog bone.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 25, 2019, 12:58:26 pm
Post by: scottb on August 25, 2019, 01:04:38 pm
The thermostat cap on a stock V6 Fiero allows coolant out?Only on overpressure when it pops
Post by: TopNotch on August 26, 2019, 10:17:09 am
And of course, also not mentioned, the car will need new tires before it can go on the road full time.
Edit: Just checked the wiring diagram. The tach is fed by the ICM, not the PCM, and there's only one output available. So assuming the tach is working OK, I'll need to make a divider circuit. Of course, it's possible that the tach is bad.
Post by: Fierofool on August 26, 2019, 11:37:48 am
Post by: TopNotch on August 26, 2019, 12:06:54 pm
Does it still have the 4 cylinder tach or did he convert it to the V6 tach in the process?All V6 instruments, including extra gauge pod.
BTW, the gas gauge is strange, too. The needle points up, not down to where the gauge markings are. I put fresh gas in it, about 3 or 4 gallons, and some Sea Foam to clean things out.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 06:11:58 pm
Compare readings in the PCM to the tach.
Post by: TopNotch on August 26, 2019, 06:26:02 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 06:29:47 pm
The tach needs to read 1,500 when RPMs are 1,500. 0 can be the way the gauge is built.
Post by: TopNotch on August 26, 2019, 08:48:36 pm
My ear says the scanner is correct.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 09:05:56 pm
Post by: MikeMac on August 26, 2019, 09:12:28 pm
So, where does the PCM get its signal?
I'm thinking it comes from the pickup in the distributor, best I remember.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 09:24:49 pm
Post by: Raydar on August 26, 2019, 09:32:29 pm
When my scanner reads 1000 RPM, the gauge reads a little over 2000 RPM. When the scanner reads 2000 RPM, the gauge reads over 4000, etc.
My ear says the scanner is correct.
That engine has coil packs... right? Maybe a "waste spark" system, like the Duke?
It's probably counting both pulses. The "fire" pulse and the "wasted" pulse.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 09:34:22 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 26, 2019, 09:43:59 pm
They should only be interpreted as 1 pulse because that's the input.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2019, 09:48:32 pm
Post by: TopNotch on August 31, 2019, 09:16:37 pm
There was a lot of rusty sediment in the bottom. The "new" one looks like this:
It's not new, and has a bit of crud caked on the inside, but it's a lot better.
Here's the other overflow reservoir I put in the back:
There wasn't room in the engine bay for it, with that big 3800 in there. I also replaced the hood with the better one Fierofool had brought over a while back.
It looks a lot better now.
Now all I need is for the board of directors to decide how much to sell this thing to me for, because i'm bringing my checkbook to the next meeting.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 31, 2019, 09:27:41 pm
1. TopNotch has done most of the work to get this Fiero to where it is now
2. Whatever monies have been spent out of his own pocket on this Fiero, no progress would have been made without TopNotch's efforts
3. Although I am not privy to the conditions under which this Fiero came to GFC, the Fiero needs to go to someone who wants it, and can get it back on the road.
4. It would fair that, if TopNotch wants to purchase this Fiero, he should have first shot at it
5. It would be reasonable for this Fiero to be sold to TopNotch priced for the condition it was in, prior to TopNotch's efforts
6. It would seem that the club needs to offload things, when it can
Post by: Fierofool on August 31, 2019, 09:53:40 pm
If so, what does the Duke do with the wasted pulse?
You never got an answer on this. I think it works to help give a little cleaner exhaust. I recall another vehicle that used that method. I think it was a Nissan truck. The 4 cylinder that had 8 spark plugs.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 31, 2019, 09:57:21 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 31, 2019, 10:05:43 pm
It could also be that this was the most efficient way rather than having an ICM that would fire 6 individual coils. That has been overcome by the coil-on-plug systems where each cylinder has it's own coil.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 31, 2019, 10:12:33 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 31, 2019, 10:32:39 pm
The coil packs combine 1-4, 5-2, and 3-6 on the Buick engine. Autozone lists the order as 1-2, 5-4, 3-6. All others list the former.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 31, 2019, 10:34:40 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 31, 2019, 10:50:34 pm
Post by: Raydar on August 31, 2019, 11:16:18 pm
If so, what does the Duke do with the wasted pulse?
Instead of firing just before the top of the compression stroke (as the other side of the coil pack is doing) it will fire just before the top of the exhaust stroke.
It may help to ignite any remaining fuel, as it leaves the cylinder. Or it may not. I'm thinking that most of the oxygen will have been depleted by that point, but it really doesn't matter. It doesn't contribute anything to the power output of the engine. I think that it was just a convenient way to configure the coil packs.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 31, 2019, 11:27:44 pm
Post by: MikeMac on September 01, 2019, 12:55:10 am
I'm not on the board, but I'd like to make several points:
1. TopNotch has done most of the work to get this Fiero to where it is now
2. Whatever monies have been spent out of his own pocket on this Fiero, no progress would have been made without TopNotch's efforts
3. Although I am not privy to the conditions under which this Fiero came to GFC, the Fiero needs to go to someone who wants it, and can get it back on the road.
4. It would fair that, if TopNotch wants to purchase this Fiero, he should have first shot at it
5. It would be reasonable for this Fiero to be sold to TopNotch priced for the condition it was in, prior to TopNotch's efforts
6. It would seem that the club needs to offload things, when it can
I agree with all of the above. Well put.
Post by: Raydar on September 01, 2019, 10:34:25 pm
I agree with all of the above. Well put.
I agree.
Post by: TopNotch on September 02, 2019, 07:37:39 pm
Only one rear light works on the passenger side. I tried switching bulbs, and it looks like two sockets are bad.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 02, 2019, 07:55:59 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 02, 2019, 08:42:27 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 02, 2019, 09:32:09 pm
BTW, here's a simple way to check turn signal circuitry. Prepare a short length of wire with a spade connector at each end. Remove the signal flasher and replace it with the prepared wire. Now when you turn the turn signal stalk (key in run), the appropriate lights (left side or right side) should light up solidly. If any lights are not lit (and the bulbs are good), you can meter along the path from the switch to the light to locate the fault.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 03, 2019, 06:30:07 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 03, 2019, 07:57:23 pm
What is the source for the current?I'm assuming that you have a battery in the car.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 03, 2019, 08:00:28 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 03, 2019, 08:40:41 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 03, 2019, 08:53:58 pm
I suppose, one end could be connected to a wire and the frame, and the other end to the frame and the continuity meter. Then swap to the other wire. Or, a 9V battery could be connected to both wires at the relay end, which should light the bulb, albeit dimly.
Post by: TopNotch on September 03, 2019, 09:26:06 pm
But in the case of the turn flasher, you can plug it directly in the socket, which leaves the third pin free for connecting a ground wire.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 03, 2019, 09:32:42 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 11, 2019, 04:53:17 pm
I couldn't get a tow truck to save my life, so daughter came and took me home to get a gas can, and took me back to the car. It started right up after adding gas. Upon reaching home, it was making a stuck lifter tapping sound again. And the suspension makes a few clunks and rattles while driving. Something is loose down there. More work needed.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 11, 2019, 06:11:07 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 11, 2019, 07:38:32 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 14, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 14, 2019, 09:18:22 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 15, 2019, 02:37:08 pm
Post by: TopNotch on September 15, 2019, 09:14:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 15, 2019, 09:20:15 pm