Post by: fiero4.3L on July 12, 2017, 06:19:23 pm
My 4.3 swap uses a stock fiero flywheel (only the 1985 4.3 used the same internal balancing, two piece rear main seal, and crank flange pattern as the 1985 and older sbc, just an fyi).
Instead of waiting until it is finished to post, I've decide to post as I go.
The rear transmission mount bracket uses the stock fiero mount without modification or relocation. The bolts used to attach the bracket to the trans came out of a 4 spd muncie bracket. The angle of the mount was off a few degrees because I did not realize the mount was torn until I looked at these pics (see photo). This mount could be improved by picking up one of the lower torx bolts on the trans but I think it is adequate as-is.
I think I am limited to 4 pics per post, right?
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 12, 2017, 06:20:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 12, 2017, 06:24:18 pm
I don't know of a pic limit, but after some experimentation I decided it looked best to limit posts to 4 or fewer images, as well as put a blank line between the images.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 12, 2017, 06:38:03 pm
The mount pops out easily after bending the 4 tabs inward. The mount can be reinserted with the top facing up. I added three dimples in the bracket as a witness to align the mount. One side of the bracket is radiused and the other has a sharp inside corner. The mount inserts from the radiused edge side.
After cutting off the third hole with a band saw, the third hole bolt is shortened and a 1/8" thick plate is added with a spacer to bring all the holes to the same level. Washers could be used. I thin it was about 0.43 thick and I welded it to the plate so I would not loose it next time I take it apart.
Here is a pic of the front mount bracket that bolts on so it is easy to remove, making it easier to get the trans in and out.
It picks up the existing hole on the outside of the cradle (upsized to 3/8"), picks up an existing hole I already had on top (also 3/8"), and adds two 1/4 holes on the front cross member.
You can see some of the progress on the cable adapter linkage on the shifter hanging next to it.
I will post more as I go.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 12, 2017, 06:39:03 pm
I'm glad you decided to post as you go. We will be able to go through the transformation with you.
I don't know of a pic limit, but after some experimentation I decided it looked best to limit posts to 4 or fewer images, as well as put a blank line between the images.
Thanks, I guess 4 is enough anyway.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 14, 2017, 07:46:34 am
The cables I am using are morse type universals for boat steering. They are designed for runs up to 50 feet with minimal friction and a marine environment. Since I need the shortest available (which is a few inches longer than all the fiero cables at 72 inches), they are cheap. I bought mine off ebay (seastar xtreme) for about $25 each.
I suggest using the 1/4" morse 40 type cable rather than the 10-32 morse 30 type cable I am using because the shifter pins are 1/4". Generally, non-aviation, commonly available rod ends have the same shank size as the eye size. With 10-32 cables, I had to mod 10-32 rod ends to fit the shifter pins by punching out the inner ball, grinding the sides flat (since the shifter pins are so short) and fit an hdpe bushing to the id.
I've found the heavy duty 1/4" cables for about $60 each at 6 feet if anybody is interested.
I've finalized the design of the shifter adapters and should post those in the next few days. It took a lot of trial and error to design something that was stable without modifying the shifter but the result is very simple.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 14, 2017, 07:52:49 am
I'm curious why some of the brackets are painted orange, while some of the clearly custom/cut/welded brackets are bare metal.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 14, 2017, 08:29:24 am
I take pics in process so I can use the microsoft paint program to draw what I want to do on the pic different ways before committing to actual patterns or metal. Those pics were to help me design.
Most of this custom work will go on and off the car a half dozen times before it can be considered finished and ready for paint.
Also, I prefer not to paint anything I shortly expect to weld to. For example, the bare base plate has no mount for the bellcrank yet, which is just floating there between the white plastic bushing and the cable end.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 14, 2017, 09:12:11 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 18, 2017, 05:56:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=657&v=bPjBaMYfHZA
The site:
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/controls-and-cables/control-cables-and-accessories/
The long piece was the first attempt using a fork mount that was too bulky and hard to fit.
The short one works but was the "prototype" and looks it where I cut the notches for the fiero cable clips and will likely be redone like the last effort which is for the select cable and slightly longer. It only required three spot welds to hold the backing ring and the flat was made by cutting a slot in the tube and flattening in a vice. The clips are specific to the cable size (morse 30 or 40) and were a couple bucks each on ebay.
The screws are #8 place holders until I find my #10-24 tap so no nuts either. The most critical part is getting the slots relative to the rings in the right position so the cable is very tight like the original cables.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 18, 2017, 06:02:46 pm
I'm looking forward to seeing the final product on this, once you clean up the end of the pipe and the edge of the flat piece.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 07:35:25 am
On the shifter adapters:
The main tube is the same size as the opening in the shifter flange, 1 inch. The rings were cut from 1-1/4 inch tube and a small piece cut out so the ends but when the ring is clamped tight around the 1 inch tube. A ring could have been made from the 1 inch tube but it would leave a gap; not critical but I wanted the adapter to fit as tightly as possible.
For clamping, I tried two-piece kart axle collar clamps but the opening in the shifter flange is not far enough off the bottom of the shifter base for the clamps to clear. Using the original clips is much better.
I still work full time and have a lot of other vehicles I need to work on (miatas, 75 postal jeep, bronco 2), so I am trying to get this done and move on but the weather is not cooperating. My fruit trees and grass love it though. As such, I don't have time to be too meticulous!
"And remember, this fix is only temporary, unless it works." Red Green
Red Green show quotes: http://ciscohouston.com/docs/docs/quotes/green.html
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2017, 08:00:57 am
A '75 postal jeep? I haven't seen one for a long time. Cool!
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2017, 08:03:01 am
The rings were cut from 1-1/4 inch tube and a small piece cut out so the ends but when the ring is clamped tight around the 1 inch tube.
My reading comprehension isn't what it should be. I'm lost after ”ends”. Is there a word missing?
Post by: Fierofool on July 19, 2017, 08:19:40 am
Ashamed that you and GTXVette are so far apart. You two really need to get together on your projects.
Post by: GTXVette on July 19, 2017, 11:11:27 am
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 12:35:37 pm
The rings were cut from 1-1/4 inch tube and a small piece cut out so the ends but when the ring is clamped tight around the 1 inch tube.
My reading comprehension isn't what it should be. I'm lost after ”ends”. Is there a word missing?
I wasn't sure what I was trying to say either at first. A small piece is cut out of each 1.25" ring so the ring can be squeezed to fit tightly around the 1" tube. The cut ends of the rings but against each other for a full shoulder around the tube against the shifter flange.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 12:58:01 pm
Are you making detailed prints of everything as you finalize each piece in the event that a piece breaks later on, or someone one else might want to do the same swap? This is a very interesting project. I like the way you improvise and come up with new methods.
Ashamed that you and GTXVette are so far apart. You two really need to get together on your projects.
No, I just make it, but I will take some measurements and make some drawings when the f23 comes back out to finalize the clutch shim issue after all else is done. That is what forums are for imho.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 01:00:49 pm
where do you live 4.3,(not in profile info) I feel the same way about Paul he's like 2 hrs.out
I'm West of ATL.
Post by: GTXVette on July 19, 2017, 01:13:24 pm
I'm up 575 north just above Canton, In BallGround. I know the west side pretty well I grew up around Smyrna and ran around most everywhere to the "Bama line.
Post by: f85gtron on July 19, 2017, 02:35:47 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 19, 2017, 02:55:13 pm
Off topic, but about Mail Jeeps. My old partner and I put together a Dispatcher's Jeep for his then-girlfriend who was a contract mail carrier. Consisted of 5 different Jeeps, a Chevy steering box turned upside down, a Chevy 304 V8 with automatic transmission. The first time out of the shop door, he tromped on it across the lot. The side door wasn't fully latched and it came right out the back of it's track and fell onto the parking lot.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 04:47:42 pm
I've been making a lot of improvements but will keep the white with postal stripe paint scheme. They get crazy money for old jeeps these days.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2017, 04:53:35 pm
Is the grey decklid hump on the Fiero to clear the engine?
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 19, 2017, 05:12:23 pm
I have a much lower profile 2 barrel aluminum intake from an early 80s 229 v6 with a phenolic spacer/adapter I made to convert to a holley two barrel and insulate the carb for ethanol reasons. Overall it will be much lower but I have not gotten around to putting it on yet. I don't think I will those two extra barrels. I mostly enjoy the mid-range torque.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 20, 2017, 02:07:43 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 20, 2017, 03:57:38 pm
Very interesting usage of the drill bits.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 20, 2017, 03:59:11 pm
Where will you connect this clamp, and the one on the other side?
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 20, 2017, 06:45:35 pm
I don't know what you mean by the clamp "on the other side". The same clamp is pictured from above, below, and from the front in trying to show all aspects of the front mount and bracket.
The bits help in putting the shifter mid-travel for select and shift.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 20, 2017, 06:49:53 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 25, 2017, 06:51:11 pm
For the pinned shifter arm, I used 3/4 DOM with .060" wall that left me with 0.610" id compared to 0.590" f23 shift rod od.
I split the tube at the seam, squeezed it in a vice to close the gap and rewelded the seam for a very tight fit to the rod.
If one wanted zero clearance after installation, an X cut across the bottom of the tube, 0.625" deep would allow a heavy duty hose clamp to reduce the clearance but it isn't pretty (I'll post a pic). I tried that with the old tube that was not split so had .020" clearance and it worked great. Note the f23 stock shifter is a very sloppy fit, with a rubber sleeve inside.
To increase the engagement of the cross pin, I added a ring (similar to the shifter adapter tubes) from 1 inch dom tube with a .083" wall combined with the .060" wall of the 3/4 tube.
A section of 11ga 1x2 was added to thew top of the shift tube to seat the uhmw bushing pinned to the bell crank. The arm is .125" strip and reduced the throw about 45% and this will be limited at the shifter so the shift cable cannot be overloaded by running out of travel at the trans before the shifter. More on that when I actually do it.
The bell crank is approximately 3:1 since I wanted to ensure the shift gates were not narrowed. I measured the cable travel when moving the shifter from side to side and measured the linear travel of the f23 shift rod.
With the extra length of the new cables, I decided to run the trans ends parallel to the case seam for max clearance to the exhaust. Since the cables are smaller od, I ordered smaller od fire sleeve to protect them individually from the exhaust heat.
The base plate is 0.125"x 5" strip with a 1/2" strip welded around the edge for rigidity and to raise the cable mounts about 1/2" off the base. The base is longer because the cables are longer from the clips to the eyes than the originals. The cables had to be as low as possible due to my battery location right above the shift rod. I may be able to post some pics tomorrow.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 26, 2017, 06:33:22 pm
You might be wondering how to precisely locate the hole in the tube to align with the existing hole in the shift rod.
Start out with a longer tube than you need. I used a piece about three inches long.
After you have finished the tube to fit properly as described in the previous post, drill a hole in the center of the tube through one side, approximately 3/4 inch from the shift rod seal (I'll be providing dimensions of the finished piece).
Debur the inside with a carbide rotary file ( I use a bastard cut, tree shaped file for porting cylinder heads that is about a 1/2 inch in od) then slip on and align the hole on one side, then drill through the center to the other side. The shift rod will guide you.
Do it before installing the trans and raising the cradle unless you have a 90 degree drill adapter.
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 27, 2017, 05:02:09 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on July 31, 2017, 06:14:40 pm
I'm also making an adjustable tool that supports the flywheel end of the engine from below at the cradle with the trans removed, the idea being I hope to just swing the drivetrain down without removing the front bolts, leaving enough room to pull the transaxle. We'll see how it turns out.
I found the shifter was too motorcycle-like and short (throw from neutral is about 1.25" at the top of the rod threads on a stock shifter). I'm extending the shift arm an inch and reworking the base plate again for the change. Select works fine.
Also installing a water neck mounted cap to replace the moroso inline filler.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 05, 2017, 09:22:01 am
Here you can see the bell crank, the uhmw bushing, and the difference in shift arm length between what I made and a 4 spd arm. It will be extended another half inch so still about 20% shorter throw but what I have here is too much imho.
I made a support tool for the engine for putting the trans in and out. It engages a blind hole in the bottom of the block left over from the manufacturing process adjacent to the pan rail. There are usually two holes; both on one side of the block. The horizontal tube rotates into position and locks in with a tab so it cannot slide out of the rear cross member. The vertical piece has a 1/2" rod tip to engage the block welded into a 3/4 tube with a 1/2-13 nut welded to the bottom. The bolt is run into the vertical tube with a nut above the horizontal tube flange jambing the bolt to the flange. The bolt head is held while the vertical tube is rotated by the welded nut to extend the tube. Alternately, the jamb nut could have been welded to the flange. Everything is locked in so it cant come apart under load or the engine moving around. The bolt I have is too short. A fully threaded 3 inch bolt would work well or b7 threaded rod with a nut welded to the end as a head. Ideally, the flange above the forward cross member would be longer than the flange where the vertical tube engages the horizontal tube.
Why blue? It was at hand.
I'm also making some tools to make it easier to drop, remove, and install the subframe safely. I'd forgotten what a hassle it is.
I ordered heavy duty casters to make a trolley that bolts to the subframe(so it can't slip) using existing openings and has a pinned pocket for the floor jack (so it can't slip) that is located at the center of gravity for the subframe so it is easier to stay level. The jack will still be removable with weight on the trolley.
I'm also making a body lift tool that allows the hoist to be behind the car with the hoist legs out of the way of the subframe and floor jack.
On the clutch, I brazed an m12 brake coupler to the fitting from the f23 htob manifold, removed the boot and spring from the old htob that came with the trans, then measured the travel at the htob with one full stroke of the pedal which uses a larger master cylinder than the f23 donor.
Picked up some flywheel shims for an early sbc and the fiero just in case that is all I need to use the old style pp. I also have a pressure plate for a 2002 cavalier f23 to compare to the common, standard pp.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 05, 2017, 09:27:45 am
These shims would seem to be unbalanced:
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 05, 2017, 10:02:30 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 05, 2017, 10:07:31 am
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 05, 2017, 11:48:48 am
Picked up these cobalt seats this morning for $50 each. Someone had already removed them and then realized they might have trouble with the fork front mount in a retrofit app. Unfortunately, they were filthy, so I scrubbed until I got to this point. Good enough for an old jeep, right?
They had nice tweed clean cavalier seats but that would have been too easy, right?
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 05, 2017, 03:06:46 pm
You should be able to get the stain out of the driver's seat.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 12, 2017, 04:27:51 pm
The casters have steel 3 inch wheels and two lock. They are supposed to be rated at 330 lbs each. The set were $25.
Fit demonstrated on a spare subframe.
Working on a different ideas for lifting and supporting the car hoist/optional.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 12, 2017, 05:16:02 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 12, 2017, 06:01:29 pm
Post by: Raydar on August 12, 2017, 06:09:04 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 12, 2017, 07:58:45 pm
On to the lift!
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 14, 2017, 06:46:53 pm
Just as an FYI, my floor jack is the Walmart Torin low pro 3 ton found here: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Torin-Jacks-3-Ton-Low-Pro-Jack/14560043
It is about 18 inches from the 6 inch high handle pivot to the center of the pad at 3 inches high. My trolley has casters that are 4 inches total height with 2 inches from the framing for 6 inches, but the distance from the side to the cg pad is 18 inches so I can’t raise the handle.
My jack and just about any floor jack that has a pad height of approximately 3 inches will work from the front and the weight is less than half a ton where even the smallest floor jacks are usually rated 1.5 tons. A smaller jack would be easier to use in the confined space or I could make a short handle for my 3 ton unit.
There are affordable jacks that will reach from the side. This costway 3 ton looks like it will work but the length is not shown: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Costway-3-Ton-Heavy-Duty-Steel-Ultra-Low-Profile-Floor-Jack-Rapid-Pump-Car-Pump-Lowrider/390149058#about-item
This Harbor freight long reach jack should work great being 40 inches long but it is expensive at $134 regular price, so I’ll be looking for a sale: https://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-low-profilelong-reach-steel-heavy-duty-floor-jack-with-rapid-pump-68050.html
Here is the same thing in aluminum so about 30 pounds lighter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-Rider-3-Ton-Aluminum-Racing-Car-Auto-Floor-Jack-Rapid-Pump-Lift/192252484744?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
And here is a shorter harbor freight that is still way longer than what I have at 29 inches for $95: https://www.harborfreight.com/3-ton-low-profile-steel-heavy-duty-floor-jack-with-rapid-pump-61253.html?utm_source=publitas&utm_medium=monthly-ad&utm_campaign=082017
I don’t know. Maybe I’ll just go in from the front for now?
I built a lift frame Sunday to go under the back of the car. It provides a wide, stable, lateral beam for a jack and stands and does not interfere with removal of the subframe. I need to add alignment pins to engage the chassis holes so it can’t slip, bolts so it can’t come off under load, and a system to allow a jack with limited travel to bring it up to the required height in two or three lifts. No modification to the car and the stiffest part of the rails are used, the pinch welds. Instead of only an inch of engagement as you would for jacking the car from the side rocker for a tire change, I'm using about 8 inches of pinch weld on each side to lift the car so the load is spread out as much as possible.
I also made adapters that fit the strut towers for a chain lift with a hoist. I was going to cantilever off the upper frame rails at the firewall to the strut adapters to extend the lift point to behind the car but most folks have battery trays in the way so I am trying to make something more universal.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 25, 2017, 06:02:43 pm
I finished the lift. I'm waiting on a pair of $20 2 ton jack stands that I ordered so I can make them about 30 inches high to complement the lift. I'd buy some but they'd be about $300. I need to buy more steel tomorrow for that. I'm hoping to get back to the trans swap this week after the tools are finished.
I'll show the jack stand, lift, and trolley in action at that time.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 03:12:19 pm
My $19 jack stands came in. I added 20 inches to the height. Now I just need to finish this one and build it's twin, then i can get back to the f23 thing.
Post by: Fierofool on August 28, 2017, 08:40:09 am
It also used a remote oil filter similar to what you have. Fed by a QuadraJet, and though it didn't have a conventional distributor, it had a small electronic distributor that fed into a brainbox or ECM. It was running about 220 HP, according to Yamaha.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 28, 2017, 11:48:29 am
The relocation interferes with the oil filter and sometimes the exhaust depending on the manifold used.
I’ve had 3 oil filter adapters, 3 different manifolds, and 2 different starters over the years. No failures, just continuing improvement.
The 4.3 is also a common marine engine and another source for carbureted intake manifolds.
The ecm provided the timing curve to the electronic distributor instead of advance weights and vacuum advance. The distributor I have is a basic sbc hei type with weights and vacuum but a six point pickup instead of the 8 point pickup for an sbc. It has one spade terminal for the ignition power and one for the tachometer output.
The adjustable engine support worked great. Just a few turns set it to where I needed it to pull the trans.
While I have it out, there is an area on the subframe that I would like more clearance from. It isn’t necessary but since it is easy to get to….
HTOB/HRB MEASUREMENTS
A few posts back, I mentioned that I tested the clutch system and found 0.480-490” of travel at the HTOB with one full stroke of the fiero master. This is the minimum that the HTOB must be compressed from the end of its travel to ensure it cannot over extend (To compress more than this can result in reduced clutch life, since the pp fingers move toward the trans as the clutch wears and can unload the clutch if shimmed too much).
One way to do this is to make sure the engine side protrudes far enough at the pp fingers to compress the HTOB this far. For tolerances, I chose to use 0.500” as the minimum cushion.
Fully extended, I measured 1.890”. 1.890+0.500 = 2.390” as the minimum distance from the bell mating flange to the HTOB.
For the engine side the pp finger height needs to be a minimum of 2.390” from the bell mating surface with a new clutch.
Here is a comparison of a replacement pp and clutch for a 2002 cavalier and the standard fiero pp used in most applications through the 90s and the aftermarket ceramic clutch I’m using.
The ceramic clutch is 0.320” thick at the facings as is the cavalier clutch with the marcel spring squeezed.
Installed, the standard fiero pp puts the fingers at 2.300“ from the bell housing mating surface on the block adapter and would require a $5 0.89” crank shim if the clutch is new which is slightly less than my cushion minimum of 0.500 but greater than the actual measurements of 0.480-490”. It should be fine.
The cavalier pp puts the fingers at 0.135” further (than the standard fiero pp) from the block adapter at 2.435”, no shimming required.
So now I just need to bench bleed the HTOB and put it back together.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 28, 2017, 02:49:00 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on December 17, 2017, 09:15:43 am
Post by: fiero4.3L on December 18, 2017, 05:41:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on December 18, 2017, 05:44:34 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on December 18, 2017, 06:21:40 pm
Welded a tab to the alt brkt so I could attach a rain guard/heat shield. The shield also picks up a third bolt on the block and is not attached to the alternator so there is an air gap and it does not affect belt adjustment.
Fabbed adjustable throttle bracket to work with the fiero's long exposed cable end that normally wraps around a throttle body quadrant. This pic was before I found I needed to boxed the top where the cable boss fits through.
Installed pic.
Clearance notch I spoke about before. Eventually i will repair the inner well.
Moved tank for better access. Also replaced lines that were severely corroded/split from being under the battery.
This piece goes between the shifter and the front attachment points on the arm rest. I needed a repair and did not want to rebuild the whole center console. I probably will eventually.
I made a deck lid prop also but didn't take any pics. My deck lid springs broke long ago.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on December 18, 2017, 07:17:26 pm
Interesting distributor cover and red shields on the cables. I guess those are the transmission cables.
Post by: fiero4.3L on December 19, 2017, 05:57:54 pm
Those are the shifter cables with "fire sleeve" to protect them from exhaust heat. I have sleeving on the oil lines too.
I forgot a pic of the decklid bump.
Post by: Raydar on December 19, 2017, 07:50:47 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on December 21, 2017, 06:08:45 am
I removed the firewall wiring bushings to get rid of all the extra wiring I didn't need. A pot of hot water to soften the sealant helps.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 17, 2018, 07:37:18 am