Georgia Fiero Club Forum

All Things Fiero => Tech Tips, Tech Questions => Topic started by: f85gtron on July 15, 2014, 12:29:16 pm

Title: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 15, 2014, 12:29:16 pm

My 2.8 developed ticking in the rear bank valves. I went to change the oil, in the hopes that the oil in it was too thin, but it's still there. Maybe a collapsed lifter?  What do i check first?
Ron

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Roger on July 15, 2014, 01:12:41 pm

It could also be a worn rocker arm. I've had one wear through at the top of the valve (not on my Fiero but another Pontiac). It's ticking got louder as time went by. I found the problem when I removed the valve cover.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 15, 2014, 01:49:19 pm

Oh man, now you've got me worried!  I just installed new rocker arms!everything had been fine for a while....

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 15, 2014, 01:55:35 pm

By rear, if you mean the side away from you, near the passenger firewall, it may be a cracked exhaust manifold.  It's common to crack at the #6 runner.  It could also be a fuel injector.  Use a piece of heater hose to isolate the noise.  Use it like a stethoscope with one end to the ear and the other as your explorer end. 

To check the rocker arms near the trunk side, a long screwdriver used in the same manner, placed against the top of the valve cover.  Disclaimer:  Just be sure to put the sharp end against the engine and the handle against your ear. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 15, 2014, 02:23:48 pm

Try replacing one quart of oil with a quart of Rislone. (If you are a quart low, just add the Rislone.)  If the problem is a stuck lifter, there's a good chance that stuff will free it up. It's one "snake oil" that's actually good.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 16, 2014, 01:23:33 am

What is this Rislone and Where do i get it?  Is it simular to sea foam?

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 16, 2014, 09:45:25 am

Quote from: f85gtron on July 16, 2014, 01:23:33 am

What is this Rislone and Where do i get it?  Is it simular to sea foam?

Rislone is basically a motor oil with very strong detergent additives in it. Although Sea Foam might also work, it is not a lubricant, so it could only be left in the crank case a little while. Rislone can be left in until your next oil change.
You should be able to find Rislone at any auto parts store.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 16, 2014, 11:21:05 am

Thanks. I'll check it out!

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 17, 2014, 11:32:52 am

Ok. Rislone is in....fingers crossed.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 19, 2014, 02:38:36 pm

I've still got TICKS. Its the rear cyl closest to the dis. I'm gonna pull the top end and replace the lifters, which i should have done when i did all the rocker work.  Duh.
Do i need to know any tricks, or words of advise before going in?

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 19, 2014, 04:11:56 pm

If you're going to that trouble, you might as well check your cam for wear. If the bottom of a lifter is dished instead of flat, that's a sure sign of cam wear.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 19, 2014, 08:02:17 pm

Ron, if you mean the cylinder nearest the driver's back on the distributor end, that's where the exhaust manifold is bad about cracking.  It will sound just like a tick.  Check it out very well before tearing your engine apart.  I'd hate to see you strip the top off only to find you still have the tick when you've made repairs to the valvetrain. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 19, 2014, 08:58:49 pm

Ok. I'll check it carefully.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 20, 2014, 10:19:56 pm

Found the tick, but what caused this? All the other rods are good. No oil?  Too tight? Lifter looks good, cam looks good, bottom of same rod looks good.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Roger on July 21, 2014, 06:38:12 am

That's what I would call 'just one of those things'. There are many things that could have caused it. One thing you can do is to roll it on a known flat surface. If it 'wobbles' any at all, then it is bent (of course). A sticky valve, valve guide, lack of oil under the rocker arm to pivot...and so on.

First thing, buy and install a magnetic oil pan plug. Always re-install pushrods to the same lifter they came from. You may be able to buy a single pushrod (I do not know). I'm sure that some folks out there have some just lying around. Just be certain to roll it as you did the bad one, check its length to insure it is the same length as one of the others you have and that there is no obstruction through it or varnish on the outside and ends.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 21, 2014, 07:09:04 am

It doesn't look like the end is worn down.  It's too smooth and polished.  It can't have been pushed back inside because the ball end is larger than the shaft of the rod.  Maybe someone has substituted another pushrod in the past?  Compare the shaft length, exclusive of the ball ends.  If you can't purchase a single pushrod, grab one from a 3.4 in the junkyard. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 21, 2014, 09:46:29 am

I wonder if a previous owner replaced a rod with the wrong type. Some engines (including yours) require a hollow rod though which oil must pass to lubricate the upper valve train. Some engines use solid rods.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 21, 2014, 02:44:55 pm

I have plenty of push rods. I'm wondering if i should replace the rocker arm too?  The cup looks fine...
These were supposed to be the "high tension" push rods from crane cams. So far, the factory pushrods look heavier duty to me....I'm just sayin'.....

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Roger on July 21, 2014, 07:35:45 pm

Put some oil on the end of the pushrod and spin that end in the seat(cup) of the rocker. If it feels smooth and you don't notice any roughness or cracks I'd say use it. Anything else would be questionable.

Crane Cams should be ashamed. I'd send it back to them...just for principle.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 22, 2014, 05:44:01 am

I've checked the lifter on that rocker and its ok. It was pushing oil up through the rod. The cup on the rocker looks brand new. I spun a good rod in it's cup and it spins freely with no dragging or scored feeling, so i guess I'll use it. The factory pushrods are heavier and more solid, so those will go back in. I've got new lifters on the way that will go in, and i pulled the heads to have them gone through....while I'm in there ;) 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Roger on July 22, 2014, 11:16:30 am

Since you are pulling the heads, port match and clean out the exhaust ports a little.
You can clean up the intake ONLY at the gasket. Do not go inside the intake. You
need those little bumps in there.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 22, 2014, 02:22:12 pm

Roger,
I've already done the exhaust side and manifolds. I'm wondering about the intake. Are you talking about the plenum, manifold, head side, all three?  How much to remove before it gets out of hand?  I don't want to lose low end torque. I do a lot of city driving.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Roger on July 23, 2014, 05:11:34 am

Look at the outline of the gasket(s) on all pieces. Do not grind into where the gasket was seated. Only smooth out the ports as far as you can go. Do not remove a lot of material, just smooth them out.
You are only giving the intake and exhaust a smoother path with fewer restrictions. This process is very elaborate and I have only stated it as simple as possible. Please look up port matching and polishing online and only consider those from well trusted origins.
Always ask first. There is no going back if there is a 'oops'.
I forgot to mention; always drag a straight-edge along any flat surface and clean up any snags with emory cloth. A very light touch with a file at the edge of the ports will help also.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 23, 2014, 10:00:20 am

The worst restriction in the Fiero V6 intake is the "neck" -- between where the throttle body attaches and where it branches out to the individual cylinders. The cross sectional area of the neck is smaller than the throttle body, so even if you put on a bored out throttle body (as some do), the neck still restricts air flow. There are some suggestions on Pennock's as to what to do about this. One involves cutting out the underside of the neck and welding on a shaped aluminum plate to increase the cross sectional area.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 23, 2014, 08:48:33 pm

Roger, i did research based on your post and i understand exactly what to do. The stained outlines must have been engineered into the runners for dopes like me.
The neck would be easier to open up with a log and runners or two logs branching off a large bore collector which the tb mounts too. Hmmm....I'm thinking......

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 23, 2014, 09:23:09 pm

If you converted to the DIS system, eliminating the distributor, you could use the Camaro 3.4 intake.  Maybe even the Firebird intake, but I don't know how the shapes compare.  It would also require the installation of a crankshaft position sensor on the timing cover and a different pulley. 

Someone was selling a throttle body spacer that was of some benefit, but I don't know if it was torque or hp.  Because of the TB coolant tubes not being long enough with a spacer installed, they would need be removed, too.  They aren't of much benefit down here, anyway. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 24, 2014, 04:42:58 am

Re: the write ups on dis conversions...essentially by converting to the 7730(#?) Ecu. It really looks interesting and beneficial. I may have to give it a go....
There are tb spacers in the ricer section at auto zone. Some of them where even rifled.  I've heard that they help low end torque. Then i could enter my car in a tractor pull.
 Ha ha.  :o
Edited to add:  the tb coolant lines have already been disabled, so they could come off at any time.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 24, 2014, 08:04:49 am

I dare say you will find an adapter for the Fiero at an auto parts store.  Someone on Pennocks was making them.  I looked in the vendors section and nobody listed them as one of their products.  If you're interested, I'll ask the question of who makes them.

The 7730 would require the mentioned crankshaft sensor and a knock sensor.  By eliminating the fan switch you can install the knock sensor there, or as an alternate, there's a bolt in the trunk side of the block that can be utilized.  The ECM runs the cooling fan, so that port isn't in use.  A new harness would have to be added to manage the system.  Phonedawgz on PFF as well as a couple of others offers the harnesses. 

The 7730 utilizes more information from the engine and updates the information much much faster so the engine runs better, even if you stay with the distributor. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: TopNotch on July 24, 2014, 10:43:16 am

Here's the ultimate air intake for a 2.8 or 3.4 engine. I don't remember who's car this is, but maybe Fierofool does.
Dual throttle bodies, and a runner for each cylinder bank...

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 24, 2014, 12:54:25 pm

Strangely, Aerodonamic and I were just talking about this intake about a half hour ago.  It was built by a man in Columbus, Ga. but I can't remember his name or his username.  He's registered on the Georgia forum. 

TLG makes a dual intake, but it's not as beautiful and polished as that one. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 25, 2014, 05:30:10 am

I found it on pff. TT SLICK hailing from Columbus, Ga. Where it's he now?
Someone else spotted the center cover as:
"The center removeable plate is an idi cover from a 2.4 twin cam. The 96 up "quad 4""
Definitely looks doable. I wonder if building smaller diameter logs and tying them together with turbo piping into one tb would be even cheaper and still produce crazy results. Damn. Now I've got another project. And all this out of a buggered pushrod.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2014, 08:57:12 am

I knew his username started with T but the only thing I came up with was TLG. 

He brought the car up to the meetings a couple of times.  Not only is the engine beautiful, but so is the car, inside and out.  He came out of nowhere and showed up at one of the Fiero Factory swap meets and at our meet, then just disappeared again. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 25, 2014, 12:51:03 pm

I emailed him off pff. He replied and seemed willing to answer questions if i attempted it. He said he lives far away and doesn't follow the forum anymore. He did say, however, that he still ownes his car. Good for him.
Ron

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2014, 02:54:18 pm

If you could find another throttle body that uses the TPS and IAC in the same manner as the Fiero, but that has a larger bore, a single intake with 2 logs could work.  Have you looked at the Camaro or Firebird 3.4 throttle bodies and intakes?  It might be possible to split those intakes into 2 and actually make a dual TB intake from them. 

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2014, 03:00:32 pm

Ken Wheeler up in Robbinsville, NC did this dual throttle body setup.  Much cheaper and said that it's a real kick in the seat when the second one opens up.  Totally adjustable so that it works like a progressive 4-barrel or 2 2-barrels.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on July 26, 2014, 06:55:40 am

Quote from: Fierofool on July 25, 2014, 02:54:18 pm

If you could find another throttle body that uses the TPS and IAC in the same manner as the Fiero, but that has a larger bore, a single intake with 2 logs could work.  Have you looked at the Camaro or Firebird 3.4 throttle bodies and intakes?  It might be possible to split those intakes into 2 and actually make a dual TB intake from them.

I've been looking at that. The middle and plenum are one piece, same bolt pattern to our manifold, but face toward the battery and the distributor is in the way.
Solution:
Relocate battery
Cut out a relief for the distributor.

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 26, 2014, 08:44:40 am

If you remember, our cylinder heads are symmetrical. You can mount the heads on either bank.  Likewise, you can turn the intake around the other way.  Some have actually used the Camaro or Firebird intake and throttle body on the Fiero by changing to the DIS ignition.  That eliminates the distributor, making clearance for the intake.  You wouldn't need to relocate the battery. 

Use an 88 crossover pipe that would move the EGR valve a little further to the left, and you would also remove the single ignition coil and mount a coil pack on the trunk wall. 

Here's a short thread with a pic.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/000539.html

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: Fierofool on July 26, 2014, 12:46:16 pm

Here's another thread of a 3.4 intake used in a Fiero.  You can see that he has it turned the same as ours.  You do have to use the 3.4 valve covers because ours are too high.  You eliminate our middle intake manifold and bolt direct to the lower manifold.  Unfortunately he didn't update his thread so there aren't any finished pictures. 

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085801.html

Title: Re: I've got TICKS!
Post by: f85gtron on August 14, 2014, 01:52:48 pm

I decided to go with opening up the factory plenum. You can see my work in http://www.gafiero.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1800.0 (http://www.gafiero.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1800.0) this "restrictions" topic. I'm still thinking heavily about the dual intake setup. I'll see first if I'm satisfied with this mod  ;)
Ron