Georgia Fiero Club Forum
All Things Fiero => General Fiero Discussion => Topic started by: cogcaviz24 on November 27, 2008, 06:42:02 pm
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the car has been running great up until the past day or so. after driving for while(25 - 30mins) it starts sputtering. and when put it in neutral, it dies. when i crank back up it runs fine for a while, then starts up again. any ideas?
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Do you get a Service Engine Soon light? If so, have you checked the codes?
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it comes on and then goes off. i'll check to see what code it is tomorrow asap
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during my idle time at work, i often watch youtube videos on my phone. tonight, I did a search for "fiero, how to" and among some the videos that resulted(many i found very imformitive) I found a video on how to check engine codes. anywho, i checked my car's codes and i got 12,12,12,35,35,12. the video explaned what 12 meant. i then used the online service manual linked on the home page and found 35 is: Idle Air Control - This code will be set when the closed throttle speed is 50 RPM above or below the correct idle speed for 30 seconds. Check for vacuum leaks. Replace the IAC.
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here is the video i found
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRoSMhEL3Ms
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Sounds more like your pickup coil breaking down after it gets hot.
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Vacuum leaks usually cause a fast idle, which doesn't wait 30 minutes to happen. Try disconnecting and re-connecting the wires on your ignition module and spark coil. This will wipe the contacts. Sometimes bad contacts cause symptoms of bad parts. Eliminate the free problems before you spend money.
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First, I'd suggest that you purchase a Haynes Manual. If Old One and I82roadster are reading this, I'd suggest the same for them. There are several versions. There's the small handbook, just a little bigger than a Readers Digest, then there are 2 full-sized versions. Version 79008 (1232) doesn't have the updates in it, that covers some of the changes that were made during the model years. It also doesn't have some info for the 88's. That number is in the upper right front corner of the cover.
I interpret that your check engine light comes on only after driving, but not while sitting at idle. With that, first thing I'd check would be vacuum leaks. I just read a thread that suggested spraying brake cleaner fluid over all your vacuum lines but cautioned to have a fire extinguisher readily available. Simply said--DON'T.
However, you can use a small hand held propane torch. With the engine at operating temp, turn on the torch but don't light it. Pass the nozzle slowly along all vacuum lines and connections. The engine will gain rpm when you get to the vacuum leak. I've used this many times, and have only had one ignition. I passed near an arching spark plug wire and it lit the torch. No explosion, it just lit the torch.
I've tried to find the number for the correct Haynes Manual, but can't. Robbie, if you're reading this, the book you have is the correct one.
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i bought a haynes manual earlier today, number 79008. it has info on the 88 model. I've been at the in-laws for the past 2 hours. so I've had plenty of time to thumb through it. i have an idea of what to check.
my car does idle a little high in park. i didnt think much about at first, not being 100 percent familar with this car.
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just wondering where did you get the haynes that covers the 1988 model thanks oldone in c'ville
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If you really want a good manual for your car, get a Helms manual. This is the factory shop manual. They are specific for each year. You can get them directly from Helms, or they can usually be found on Ebay. Expensive, but worth it. For example, the Helms manual is the only one that tells how to re-align the balance shafts on an 88 duke if you happen to take one apart.
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i bought a haynes manual earlier today, number 79008. it has info on the 88 model.
The 79008 does cover the 88, but there's another version that has a supplementary section added that covered some changes that were made later in the production years.
The Haynes Manuals can be had at AutoZone or Advance. And for everyone who doesn't know, you can get a discount on your Fiero Parts at Main Auto Parts. Contact me to find out how.
cmmsewell at g mail dot com
Charlie
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i checked her out and I did everything suggested. the PCV valve is checked good. all the vacuum lines are good, with the exception of one. the one coming out of the back of the EGR Vacumm control solenoid was cut at the hard line. not sure if this was the root of the problem, but i reconnected it anyway. i reset the ecm. so if it happens again, i'll be picking up a idle control module, pickup coil, and at $2.29, i'll grab a pcv too
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If it's the line I'm thinking of, the rubber line that connects to the metal line on the rear firewall, that's just for fresh air for the solenoid. Pulls from the air filter canister. Look closely at the little L shaped hose on the solenoid. Don't move it around much, just visually inspect it for cracks. Usually that little rubber piece rots away or the line cracks. If you should happen to destroy yours, I have a piece of replacement hose.
Also check the hoses underneath the MAT sensor.
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you mean the MAP right?
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Yep. My bad. :-[
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on my way to work, i stopped at the atm. when i looked down the SEL was on. when left the atm, it went off. it was 35 when i checked at work. the car ran fine the whole time.
I'm beginning to side with rob and the pickup coil theory. the idle air controler issue is intermitting, and when it occurs the engine is still running good. we will see
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i'm also getting horrible gas millage. im almost on "E" and my tripometer is showing 100 miles. i know the gauge is pretty close to being accurate thanks to running out of gas the first day i had it. this may be another sign
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I just reread your original post and it sounds like, with the gas mileage being bad, that you've got the same problem I had about 6 months ago. Your fuel pump strainer is getting stopped up with trash and causing the car to run lean, this causes the computer to compensate for the lean mixture and dump more fuel. There's where your getting the bad gas mileage. The back firing is from the lean mixture. Replace your fuel pump strainer and filter. You'll have to drop the tank inorder to do this. Before you do this, hook up a fuel pressure gauge to the shreader valve and check your fuel pressure, it should be around 41 psi, then drive the car and check it when it's starting to act up. It sounds like the strainer is stoppig up and when it dies it drops the trash and then starts back up.
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make since rob. i am spending the day in my dad's shop tomorrow, trying to fix this issue and doing some other minor stuff that needs to be done.
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the car made it less than a 1/4 mile from shop, stalled and would not crank. i smelt gas when i steped out and seen it on the ground. called my dad, and he came with a trailer. we got it back to the shop. gonna start looking it over after lunch
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come to find out, the reason it died was the ignition module inside the distributor decided to just to stop working. i checked the fuel filter while waiting on my dad and discovered the filter that was on the car was on BACKWARDS! i changed the filter and plan to change the strainer tomorrow.
the main problem is the exhaust leak. i knew it had one when i bought the car and knew it was at the manifold. BUT the we discovered the reason it was leaking there was because someone broke off 2 exhaust bolts in the block. the top one of cylinder 1 and the bottom one of cylinder 5. after some hard thinking, we've decided to drop the engine to drill the bolts out. fun stuff
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I used two gaskets and it worked great. And that was over a year ago.
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the would be a hell of alot easier
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Now that you're dropping the engine would be a good time to check out the clutch and the timing chain. A word of advise, while you have the assembly out, never roll it without the axels inserted into the hubs. It will destroy the hubs immediately. And don't overlook the ground wires, especially the one on the right deck lid hinge.
You can get a good LUK clutch package from Pep Boys for about $125 or less, and if you put a wrench on the crank pulley, you can check for slack in the timing chain. If you do replace the timing set, might as well put in a new oil pump while the pan's off.
If you got an Auto Zone ignition module, it has a lifetime warranty, but it's best to always carry a spare one with you. Helps you get back to Auto Zone to get the bad one replaced under warranty.
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i'm gonna try robs double gasket idea 1st. if i do drop the engine it would pretty hard to check clutch....considering I have one. but thanks for the advice
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my car is still in the shop >:( . the double gasket seemed to help big time. but i came across other problems. there is another leak i haven't pin pointed yet. the cat was replaced at some point and they put it on with clamps. i could rotate the cat all the way around the pipe and could not get the clamps off due to rust, so i welded each end of the cat to the exhaust pipes.
so far i've replaced the air filter,spark plugs(gapped to 0.045),wires, distributor cap, and rotor(button). i was going to rebuild the distributor too but i cant get it out, and can only rotate it with a set of rubber tipped vise grips. we adjusted the timing according to the procedure in the haynes manual. the engine sounds good.
the main issue we are having now is that there is no power. i mean, when i drive it, it feels like i am towing a truck with my car. i suspect the rear calipers are locked up. we bled the brakes, the fluid was really dark, and we could hardly get any fluid out of the back caliper(passenger rear was the worst). another thing that makes me suspect the calipers are locked,when i have the car off the ground and in neutral, the back wheels will not spin freely. my dad seems to think the fact that the distributor can not be freed, than that has something to do with the lack of power.
is there a way to disable the rear calipers, temporarily so i get eliminate them. of course i will have to take the wheels off and relieve the piston pressure.
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If your rear calipers are locked up, your rear wheels will be very hot after only a short drive.
Check your parking brake adjustment using this procedure (http://www.carquest.com/common/downloads/partsTechBrakeT1008.pdf).
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Are you sure the e-brakes are not on (or stuck)? It's very common for newbies to not fully release the e-brake (or not release it at all), and thinking it's been released. The cables can also bind.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
"The police said he commited suicide: he shot himself in the head - twice!" (real news story)
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yeah the e-brake on this car is new to me. not 100% sure if it completely down, but the light is off. i have to work with it to get to go off though.
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E-brake cables sometimes tend to stick because of infrequent use. When disengaging, push in the button, pull the handle up just past where you feel resistance, and while holding the button, put the handle all the way down. Then go to the rear of the car, reach under and grab the cable adjuster, visible against the back cross member. Pull on it. That will often release the cables, if it's stuck between the adjuster and the handle. If you've been driving the car without brake issues, then it's likely the cable, which stuck when you activated the E-brake
A common place for exhaust leaks is on the number 5 cylinder exhaust manifold. The exhaust system places a lot of stress on it, where the weld is, and the manifold cracks. I'll email you a couple of pics since I don't know how to post them here.
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thanks for the email. i wish i had my car at my house so i can check these things out. but i didn't want to risk the 30 minute drive from my parents to my house.
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so just for my confidence, can someone verify that if your fiero is up in the air and in neutral than the back wheels spin freely or do they have some resistance. i'm almost 100% sure they should spin freely, but i'd like to know for a fact.
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If it's an automatic then you'll have a slight resistance. If it's a manual it should spin free.
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thanks
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I would suggest that you remove the ebrake cables from the actuating levers on the rear brakes. That will let the brakes release, unless they're stuck inside. It could also be the sliders need fresh slider grease on them. You said you've got it up in the air, look and see if the actuator arms are all the way forward against their stops. I would also suggest that you obtain a Haynes Manual and read it very closely as it relates to rebuilding the rear calipers. You can destroy some of the internals if you do it wrong, especially when you're compressing the piston back into the bore. It might be worthwhile to just contact Don Hulse and get a fresh rebuilt set from him. He will be at the party tomorrow evening and could probably bring a set with him.
What puzzles me is that you drove the car home without a problem, and apparently drove it after you got home. At what point did the brakes lock down on you? What did you do, like setting the parking brake?
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i have a haynes manual and i've read some write ups on pff on the rear brakes. and unfortunately, i will not be able to make the xmas party, i have prior arrangements.
i didn't notice the drag on the brakes until after we bled the brakes, and i pulled the e-brake while my dad was adjusting the timing(haynes says to jumper the ALCL, put the car in drive,pull the e-brake and then check the timing on 1 and 4 ,add the degrees of the two and divide by 2, should be 10%). i did get the e-brake back down and the light off. i took it for a test drive and had no power, it felt like i was towing a truck with my fiero. my dad was convinced it due to timing. adjusted the timing again and got it 10% according the haynes manual procedures. after another test drive still had no power, even though the engine seemed to be on point. suspecting the brakes, i then lifted the car, put it in neutral, and tried spinning the back wheels. the driver side had some resistance and the passenger side would barely get a full turn when trying to spin it hard.
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I didn't remember the part about putting it in Drive, so I checked my manual, and it doesn't indicate that to be part of the procedure. Putting the car in drive puts a load against the engine and will give an incorrect timing reading. I'd reset the timing, with the car in Park, after it's reached operating temp.
Aside from that, it does sound like the brake locked on you. It's probably in the cable, since they were working ok prior to engaging the parking brake.
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Go under the car and use some big channel lock pliers to move the parking brake levers back to the unlock position. Since you have an automatic, you really don't need a parking brake, and can put front calipers on the rear, which will give you a higher pedal when you brake.
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awesome thank you
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so Saturday I work on the car a little. the e-brake was locked on both calipers. i disconnected the cables at each and made sure that they in the unlock position. I also FINALLY got the distributor out, which was jammed.
sunday i went to pull-a-part. i knew they didn't have a fiero, but i thought i find an engine with the same distributor. no luck. i thought an s10 distributor would work , but when i pulled one, the shaft was different. bummmer
so i'm looking of one, anyone got one laying around :)
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Duh... ;D
Whats wrong with your's? They can be rebuilt fairly cheap.
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i couldn't turn it to begin with. it's rusted pretty bad, i think it's the original one. with the issues i've had, the pick up coil could be shot.
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Hey, I just got notified that there's a 94 Firebird with a 3.4 that came in Friday. Gonna go down there today to check it out. That's a straight swap into the Fiero with all Fiero parts transfering to it.
The distributor on the Fiero will often be all covered in rust inside because of the ozone that's created from the spark off the end of the rotor button. Usually the distributor won't turn in the engine because it's never been moved, and it's gummed up where it goes into the block. Once you've got it loose, clean all the varnish off the distributor boss, and use some Scotchbrite to clean the block. Oil it good and it should rotate freely.
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i found a good write up on rebuilding a distributor http://www.fieros.de/en/articles/dist.html (http://www.fieros.de/en/articles/dist.html)
Fierofool: thanks, let me know about that engine. i do plan on replacing mine, when i get the money. i'll need a price as well
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I went down and looked at the Firebird. It hasn't been wrecked, so that's not the cause of it being there. It had 187,000 miles on it. Too many for a drop-in. It'd need to be rebuilt first.
All Pull-A-Part V6 motors are $127 with everything on them. I think it's about $27 to get a 30 day return warranty, and $20 core charge. If you go to pullapart.com you can put in a request for a car and you'll be automatically notified when one comes in. I keep a request for Firebird, Camaro, Fiero all the time.
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yeah i got it set up to set up to notify me as soon as a fiero is in, i need some interior, minor parts as well
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We've all got parts, just let us know what you need. Ofcourse I've got more than most but I'm running my business selling Fiero parts and fixing Fiero's and selling a few cars.
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Go to TheMarket and post your needs. It may be that some of the members have the parts.
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i got the car home. still runs bad. i think i'm gonna just park it untill tax time.
so far i've replaced:
-distributor
-ignition module
-rotor button
-distributor cap
-wires
-plugs
-idle air control valve
-timed to 12 degrees (i know it's needs to 10, but it's sounds like it runs better at 12)
-plugs gapped to .45mm
i'm thinking i might play with spark gap, buy a coil, and may try swapping the ECM
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Have you checked the trouble codes again to see if any more have been set? Wasn't the car running OK when you bought it and drove it home? At what point did it start to give you serious trouble. What did you do to it, just before it started running really bad?
Setting the timing at 12 will make you loose a little on the top end, though it might give you a little faster takeoff. The car should idle at about 950 rpm when warmed up, and in park or neutral.
A coil or ECM may not help with the problem. Before purchasing either, you might borrow one to install. I have a spare ECM for a manual V6, and I'm sure we could come up with a coil, even if we pull it off our car and put it onto yours just to test. I might be able to help you out Friday or Saturday, if you've got an inside area to work.
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Have you checked the trouble codes again to see if any more have been set? Wasn't the car running OK when you bought it and drove it home? At what point did it start to give you serious trouble. What did you do to it, just before it started running really bad?
no codes now. it did drive fine in the beginning other than about 20 to 30 minute trips it would lose power and backfire. i took it to the shop to diagnose that issue and on the way there, the ignition module went out. i replaced the module. i also fixed the exhaust leak(double manifold gasket), welded the cat(wasn't sealed good).
Setting the timing at 12 will make you loose a little on the top end, though it might give you a little faster takeoff. The car should idle at about 950 rpm when warmed up, and in park or neutral.
it needs all the help it can get on take off, it still feels like i have an anchor.
A coil or ECM may not help with the problem. Before purchasing either, you might borrow one to install. I have a spare ECM for a manual V6, and I'm sure we could come up with a coil, even if we pull it off our car and put it onto yours just to test. I might be able to help you out Friday or Saturday, if you've got an inside area to work.
i'm gonna try swapping the coil from my roommate's S10 tomorrow( if it will fit, i believe it will, it's a 2.8L) and see it will run better. if it does, i should have one by the end of the week. i may be free on Saturday. my dad's gotta a decent shop
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You should check all your electrical connections (unplug & clean), & especially your grounds.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
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i tried the coil from my roommate's S10. it ran the same, crappy. i'll check the grounds later today
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So basically it's running fine with the exception of the ankor your pulling? Have you checked your fuel pressure? You should be pumping 39 to 41 psi., this would cause a lean condition and no power.
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no it still runs bad. it sounds better in park than drive. the fuel pressure is good, one of the first thing i check. it smells like its running rich. i left the shop just under a half tank. now the car is on empty at the house. it is 16 miles from one to the other other
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In that case I'd have to go with Charlie, check your exhaust. Sounds like your converter is stopped up.
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one of the things i did before it started running bad was weld the cat. before, i could spin the cat all the way around on the inlet and outlet pipes(looked like it was replace with a junkyard cat. it was clamped on). maybe this weekend i'll cut the cat completly off, and replace it with pipe.
and i didnt get to check grounds, it got dark too quick
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If you want to get together Saturday, I have a spare OH 2 sensor that we can install. Also, it's possible that your Coolant Temperature Sensor has failed. The car will usually run good, until it gets warmed up. If it has failed on the cold side, it will run rich. How rich depends upon how far down the scale it's reading. You can unplug it to test it. It's just underneath the thermostat housing neck, screwed into the intake, and it sits horizontally, pointing at the passenger fenderwell. It should run better if it's unplugged. That is, if it's failed and is causing the rich burn.
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saturday is fine, but i may not have access to the shop(my dad says it may be occupied all weekend). we can do what we can in the drive way. weather looks like it's gonna be decent. i'll check the coolant temp. sensor tommorrow. let me know if things change.
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I need directions to your house. Email me at cmmsewell at gmail dot com or call me at six seven eight-four six seven-one seven four two
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thanks for comming by charles. always to put a face with text on the internet. weather permitting, i will be cutting the cat off tomorrow
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Did you two figure it out?
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The forecast had been for a nice partly cloudy day but it rained most all day. We draped a shipping pad over us, and also stood under umbrellas as we worked and talked.
The car still has a slight miss, and it's running rich. I unplugged the CTS, and it seemed to help a bit, but I could still smell it as I followed him down the road.
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i got the cat replaced with a pipe. and today, i took a buddies house. up untill last week, he built engines for Panos racing and is a Genious whe it comes to cars. anyway, he looked over the engine, blocked the EGR, inspected the intake manifold, found a major air leak(thething would run with the TB blocked), checked TDC, and played with the timing. he got it set the way he liked it and told me to take it for a spin..... it couldn't even climb his driveway!! sounds great, but still no power. it is sucking gas like it was a starving. he thinks it's ether a fuel injector problem or the map sensor. so it's stuck at his house for a bit
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I just posted in your Map Sensor thread that I thought you had injector problems. You need to check the fuel pressure to see if it's around 42 psi with no bleed down.
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we checked the fuel pressure, it was 41PSI. cant say about bleed off, i'll get my buddy robert to check tomorrow.
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Andy, did you get a chance to change out those parts? Any results? I just talked with Ron about the engine out here in my garage and he said you could borrow the TPS to use as a test before buying one.
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yea, i marked mine and the two you gave me(1,2) with a pencil. swaped to 1 and didnt notice a defferance. put 2 in and did notice a minor improvement. changed the spark gap back to 45. it managed to get up the drive way, and got it home. it used the 1/4 tank to get home and still has no power.
i am getting very tired of this lemon. i am considering taking my wife's advise and put it up for sale. i wont have a job by the end of the week, so I have no funding for a money pit and one less car will a little less strain on a empty wallet. Anyone need a parts car?
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Let's try the tps before you give up. You said that it gave more problems when it was plugged up. I can pull the one out here and meet you half way to give it to you. I think we can get the car straightened out without much cost.
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i was extremely frustrated when i posted that. i dont think it will sale it so quickly. BUT everything has a price tag ;)
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When You get it running right You will forget these bad times! Hang in there,It's fixable! :)
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When You get it running right You will forget these bad times! Hang in there,It's fixable! :)
And it will probably be something simple....
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
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Are you sure that the distributor is not 180 degrees out. I've just read back over all your posts and they will run at 180 out but not good. And when you replaced your IAC did you check the length of the pintal extension? It shouldn't be over 1 1/8" from the gasket to the point before installing.
To check your distributor you need to pull the no. 1 plug and get someone to bump it over while your finger is in the no.1 spark plug hole so you can feel when it on the compression stroke, then turn your crank over to get it on the timing mark and check the location of the number 1 plug wire and pull the cap and see if the rotor button is pointing directly at that plug wire location on the cap.
If you don't get it fixed soon, I'm going to have to take a road trip... ;D
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like i said, i didn't install the IAC myself, my dad did, so i'll check on it. my buddy robert checked to see if mark was correct at TDC, but we never took the cap of at the same time to see if it was pointing at # 1.
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swapping the TPS didn't make a differance. i'm gonna check the IAC and gonna try to break it down to the injectors to see what i can find. just as soon as i finsh this burger in front of me
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i finally got around to tinkering with my car. i took the upper intake off. purged the fuel pressure, cleaned the injector connections, and generally just tinkered with the fuel system. i then put everything back together. cleared the ecm's memory, just in case. crunk it....sounded great! so i hollered at my roommate so he could ride with me on test run. i drove down the road and it ran very good!! no overhelming gas smell.but it bugs me that i'm not sure what fixed it. i want to play with the timing a little more(heard a backfire) and maybe run some sea foam thru it.
the real test is to see how the MPG is
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Just remember the old adage... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Sounds like it's fixed now.
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Way to go. While you were under there did you check out all the vacuum lines?
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Just remember the old adage... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Sounds like it's fixed now.
after all the problems i've had, i got that attitude
Way to go. While you were under there did you check out all the vacuum lines?
the best i could, yes
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Andy, call me on Thursday. six seven eight, four six seven, one seven four two.
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Have you had a chance to drive the car any more since pulling the intake? How's it running?
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i've drove everyday since. not on long trips mind you, but she is doing good. i need to get it to my dad's shop to fix the exhaust leak(s).
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just an update. i went to fill it up today, i'm getting 16 mpg. not too bad
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Not bad, but we need to get you up to around 23-24. Good to know the car's running goood for you, though.
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OK for somewhat spirited stop-and-go driving. Otherwise, it should be better.