Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 15, 2017, 10:02:57 pm
This was installed on a Duke (for now) but will fit most any 2.5, 2.8, 3800, or other 60 degree V6.
I'm confused. The 3800 is a 60-degree V6? For some reason, I thought it was a 90-degree V6.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 16, 2017, 07:54:33 am
3800s are 90.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 16, 2017, 08:05:05 am
Post by: Raydar on August 16, 2017, 10:52:41 am
What I meant was that the starter should fit most everything in the 60 degree V6 family. 2.8, 3.4, 3400, 3500 and 3900.
If I do a 3900, I'll attempt to confirm that. I believe the blocks are the same in that regard. (This is NOT to include the "Hi feature" DOHC 3.6. Those are completely different.)
Sometimes I don't type too clearly. It's easy for me to be misconscrewed. :D
Post by: Fierofool on August 16, 2017, 11:09:49 am
Sometimes I don't type too clearly. It's easy for me to be misconscrewed. :D
That's better than getting missed, conned, and screwed. :(
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 16, 2017, 06:38:58 pm
Post by: GTXVette on August 23, 2017, 12:56:39 pm
I know the 200r4 trans bolts to the 3.8, is that also the same For the 3800's ?
Post by: Raydar on August 23, 2017, 05:00:30 pm
so I guess the 3800 3800SC are 90deg. v-6 with the fiero Bell shape, but is the 3.8 as found in Grand national and the 4.1 (also 90 Deg.) the same Bell as the 3800.
I know the 200r4 trans bolts to the 3.8, is that also the same For the 3800's ?
4.1? Is that based on the Buick 3.8 block? Seems like I remember hearing about it, down some dark hallway in my mind.
Regarding the 3.8 in the Grand National... I have no clue. I had a Starfire (Monza clone) with a 3.8. It had the BOP tranny pattern, but that was also a 1977 year model. The GN was obviously a decade later. I'm not sure what year they made the swapover to the "Metric V6" pattern in the RWD cars.
Post by: GTXVette on August 23, 2017, 05:32:43 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 23, 2017, 06:01:07 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 23, 2017, 08:11:18 pm
The rwd 3.8 in the 94 and newer camaro/firebird uses the v6-60 pattern.
The 4.3l uses the sbc pattern since it is essentially a 350 minus two cylinders.
Some 200-4r transmissions have the sbc pattern but they are rare. There is a sheetmetal adapter with a small pilot bushing for the converter used when adapting between the two patterns.
Post by: GTXVette on August 23, 2017, 08:28:10 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 25, 2017, 05:51:24 pm
I've found some high performance import 4 cylinders are heavier than the fiero v6-60. Not the 4.3l though as it is nearly as heavy as a ford 5.0l v8 with aluminum heads. The LS motors including the aluminum block ones are much heavier than one would expect. The v6-60 is a marvel of thin wall iron casting.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 25, 2017, 06:14:21 pm
The v6-60 is a marvel of thin wall iron casting.
Not exactly confidence-inspiring.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 25, 2017, 06:59:38 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 25, 2017, 07:00:31 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 25, 2017, 07:18:59 pm
Post by: GTXVette on August 25, 2017, 07:21:22 pm
I think a solid 300hp would be about right in the Autocross, but needs 100 more to be there in the drag portion, and of course nitrous would get that but I am anti juice, the big v-6 and most v-8's can get that power but mucho Heavy, again too much for the autoX but ok for the drag race. since I'm shooting for next year at this point I may look back at the buick aluminum V-8, they are fairly limited on air flow through the heads though. I think I could morf a chevy v-8 adapter to do a buick.
I am not a fan of the lS engines but darn they can make some power, but really in the long run they are as heavy as the LTs and all the Fuel Injection and components are Very pricey,
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 25, 2017, 07:54:05 pm
The v6-60 adapter to one of these uses a pilot bushing to go with it but sbc-bop or bop-sbc just use washers.
I have the same adapter for my 4.3 manual as you used for your brothers 400 sbc auto. I think it is 1.5 inches thick if memory serves and had to be that thick for the crank shaft adapter and hardware to clear (has to be thicker than the heads of the crankshaft bolts plus a 1/4 inch or so under the heads) plus the way Archie mounted the starter. With a specially made flywheel instead of a crank adapter, the block adapter can be much thinner but then you are stuck with a custom flywheel as a wear item. I use a standard fiero flywheel with the 4.3l.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 25, 2017, 10:02:10 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 26, 2017, 08:41:34 am
My 85 4.3 is like the sbc from 1985 and older. Only the 85 4.3 is internally balanced so a stock fiero flywheel can work.
The 86-early 90s are like the 86 and newer sbc with balance weight on the flywheel, a smaller crank flange with one piece rear main seal, etc.
It is possible to make a crank adapter that incorporates the balance weight so that newer 4.3 and sbc could use the stock fiero flywheel but nobody has done that as far as I know of.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2017, 10:03:00 am
My brother had a light truck with a 5.2, and I had a (much heavier) Formula Firehawk with a 5.7. He insisted his truck was faster, so we did a little run. Trucks are light in the rear, so we started at 60MPH. It wasn't much of a race. I left mine in 6th, and left him. I slowed back to 60, and he was still well over 100 when he caught me. I downshifted to 3rd and punched it...and left my brother like he was sitting still. So, he insisted his was faster from a stop, because it had lots of torque. So, we tried from a stop. I hit 60 in 4.2 seconds, his truck in 7.5 seconds.
I was told that a 5.7 truck engine is not the same as my LT1. However, a friend of mine has a '79 Chevy truck with a custom 454 from somewhere. We pulled out into tight highway traffic, one day, and I gave him a start, because I didn't want to overrun him. We weren't racing; I just didn't want to start going, then have to slow down or worry about oncoming traffic. Anyway, he was leading the way to the restaurant, so he picked the first gap in traffic, and I picked the next gap. He truck moved. That isn't the original engine, however. He'd had that truck completely rebuilt a few years previously. There is no way the 350 truck I had would move out like that.
So, is there a difference between a truck engine and a Corvette engine? Is your 4.3 a truck engine? How does the 4.3 run in a Fiero?
Post by: GTXVette on August 26, 2017, 11:22:22 am
then they started up the LS Series, where a Car, A truck, and the Vette only shared the long block assy. and everything that bolted to that was different. I'm So Confused.
the fiero should be a good learning experince as it's a 60 deg. V-6 (94 camero) aluminim Buick heads, Fuel Injected with a turbocharger,and does have a factory ECM but comes with a Megasquirt controler, I know nothing about any of it. Lol
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 26, 2017, 03:23:15 pm
The 4.3 Vortec was a solid engine in the Blazer, but I think it was a truck engine.
My brother had a light truck with a 5.2, and I had a (much heavier) Formula Firehawk with a 5.7. He insisted his truck was faster, so we did a little run. Trucks are light in the rear, so we started at 60MPH. It wasn't much of a race. I left mine in 6th, and left him. I slowed back to 60, and he was still well over 100 when he caught me. I downshifted to 3rd and punched it...and left my brother like he was sitting still. So, he insisted his was faster from a stop, because it had lots of torque. So, we tried from a stop. I hit 60 in 4.2 seconds, his truck in 7.5 seconds.
I was told that a 5.7 truck engine is not the same as my LT1. However, a friend of mine has a '79 Chevy truck with a custom 454 from somewhere. We pulled out into tight highway traffic, one day, and I gave him a start, because I didn't want to overrun him. We weren't racing; I just didn't want to start going, then have to slow down or worry about oncoming traffic. Anyway, he was leading the way to the restaurant, so he picked the first gap in traffic, and I picked the next gap. He truck moved. That isn't the original engine, however. He'd had that truck completely rebuilt a few years previously. There is no way the 350 truck I had would move out like that.
So, is there a difference between a truck engine and a Corvette engine? Is your 4.3 a truck engine? How does the 4.3 run in a Fiero?
For comparision, here is a test of an LT1 firehawk that puts the 0-60 at 5-6 secs:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/1995-pontiac-firebird-slpfirehawk/
Here is a test of a stock 4wd truck with a 4.3l v6 and a factory turbo that puts the 0-60 at 5-6 secs:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a26217/1992-gmc-typhoon-first-drive-flashback/
It depends on the year model as to what the differences are and how much swaps directly over. An LT1 is drastically different from the traditional sbc.
All 4.3l v6s are truck/van/commercial engines except for a diesel car version in the early 80s.
There have been a handful of 4.3l v6 fieros. The fellow in Alabama with the front engined fiero also shows a 4.3l fiero they built that runs 12s in the qtr. I think fieroguru ran 12s in his also. I don't race. Acceleration is quiet (iron manifolds) and effortless with a lot of short shifting and simple (my engine needs one wire). Economy is 20-30 mpg depending on how I drive. That is what I wanted.
I expect a sorted out 2.8 or 3.8 with a turbo could be much faster.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 26, 2017, 05:38:38 pm
But it was no V6. Somehow, that motor was crammed into the engine compartment. Sure, there are faster vehicles, but this one was a handful.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 06:54:43 am
As far as your question about truck and corvette sbc interchange, it depends on the year model as to what the differences are and how much swaps directly over. An LT1 is drastically different from the traditional sbc.
The only thing that MIGHT swap between a 4.3v6 and an lt1 are the oil pump and pickup tube, lifters, pushrods, cam and main bearings, rear main seal, flywheel, harmonic dampener, timing set, pistons, rings, rods, valve springs, retainers, valves, rocker arms and hardware depending on which 4.3 we are talking about.
If memory serves there was also a 4.3L v8 LT1 that came in full size cars around the same time.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 08:26:18 am
The Blazer had a 2.8 in it, for some years, and was underpowered. My Blazers had the 4.3, and were fine. I had an Impala with a 3.8, and it was peppy, but not a patch on the Impala with the supercharged 3.8 or the Impala SS with the 5.7. I think the 4.3 is a slower engine than the 3.8, because the Blazer was slow with a 4.3, compared to the Impala with a 3.8.
I guess a 4.3 V8 would have more power strokes per RPM, and some of the Caprices were quick, but I'd prefer the 5.7. The 5.3 V8 is noticeably slower than the 5.7 Tahoe.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 08:32:40 am
Post by: GTXVette on August 27, 2017, 09:01:45 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 09:03:00 am
Post by: GTXVette on August 27, 2017, 10:07:58 am
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 02:28:27 pm
That's a lot of items that might swap between a 4.3V6 and an LT1. Wouldn't the list of non-swapping items be shorter?
The Blazer had a 2.8 in it, for some years, and was underpowered. My Blazers had the 4.3, and were fine. I had an Impala with a 3.8, and it was peppy, but not a patch on the Impala with the supercharged 3.8 or the Impala SS with the 5.7. I think the 4.3 is a slower engine than the 3.8, because the Blazer was slow with a 4.3, compared to the Impala with a 3.8.
I guess a 4.3 V8 would have more power strokes per RPM, and some of the Caprices were quick, but I'd prefer the 5.7. The 5.3 V8 is noticeably slower than the 5.7 Tahoe.
Power to weight ratio and torque multiplication through gearing are major factors in what makes a vehicle seem fast or slow. Trucks usually have a wide variety of axle ratios to choose from that make a night and day difference in performance and mpg.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 02:44:14 pm
I'm just curious of the benefit of the 4.3 in a Fiero. Not dissing your build, but if the block is heavier, and you're going for MPG, and you don't want performance, couldn't you get better MPG, good performance, and a lighter car with a 3.4 and a good transmission? I would guess that f85gtron can get 30 MPG.
It isn't that simple. Engines have an rpm range where BSFC is lowest. This is typically around the torque peak rpm. Operation outside this area burns more fuel. If the engine is modified to improve power at higher rpms, this can increase the BSFC at the torque peak.
Forced induction engines have a higher bsfc than normally aspirated and diesels have a lower bsfc than na.
The point is, for a specific power and torque output, it is best to use an engine that provides close to that in a stock form if minimum bsfc is desired. There are a lot of ways to reach a number like 30 mpg and I'm sure F85gtron could do that. It is all a compromise.
Having said all that, remember this was nearly 20 years ago. Back then, there wasn't much information online for car guys. The basic browser and search engine was only a few years old. Before that you had to find boards. When broswer came out I thought, great, now everybody is going to be online :( . My point is it was not common knowledge that the 3800 and 4.9 would swap. Had I known, I would have just used one of those and saved a lot of money so here I am, making the most of it. ;D
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 02:56:34 pm
well that raises another question, 90Deg. OR 60deg. and will that bolt in the same as a 3.4 from a camero ? and do any FWD GM Engines just bolt in with maybe a starter re location. O K 3 questions.
Only the 90 degree 4.9 v8 and 3.8 v6 have the metric v6-60 pattern as far as I know. The fiero is a fwd drivetrain from a chevy citation and most any gm fwd v6 up to the mid-90s I believe will swap. On a related note, S10 transmissions and bellhousings are often used to convert the fwd v6s to rwd for use in MGs and Triumphs.
For a manual, unless you want a custom flywheel, I'd stick with a v6-60 such as a 3400 from a mid 90s fwd van or just rebuild the 2.8 with 3.1 parts for more displacement but I don't remember all the details but can look it up if you are interested.
Post by: GTXVette on August 27, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
I know 1 combo of that engine/ heads will get 8 to 1 Compression and another gets above 10 to 1 now I am sure the Builder knew this when he decided to Turbocharge this engine ,I just don't know the Part numbers used yet and if the pistons were changed to hopefully Forged pistons. I'll figure that out when I pull the Heads to do the Gaskets and also find out the cam used. When it is paid for I should have plenty of time for repairs and to get laps in Somewhere to make it reliable.
you mention the caddy?4.9 V8 FWD is metric BP and then refrence a 3.8 V-6, Is that a FWD 3.8 Or a RWD and are the both of them Metric(60deg.v-6) BP. Like the Grand National Buick used a 200R4 trans and I think that was a Metric also Or was that BOP
I am confused because I had a 455 Buick in a Skylark that I installed a 200R4 in and it says Metric on the Tranny Pan,we know the 455 wasn't Metric anything.
I don't recall seeing a 3.8 swap but 3.4's seem common. the 90Deg has Lots of performance upgrades availible but not so much for the 3.4
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 04:58:22 pm
I also remember that many people had actual car knowledge. They could look at pistons and tell you what they came out of. They didn't rely on manuals or the internet. People like this are rare, now. Exhaust was bent from straight pipes. I'm not putting down anyone on here, but getting parts at a dealership now is an exercise in frustration. The first person who does a given swap, like you, still has much to figure out the hard way. That's why many shops won't do this work.
I'm curious what intake you have on your 4.3. The 3.4 would suffer from moving the power to the upper RPMs, where ot can't breathe, unless using a better intake.
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 27, 2017, 06:55:41 pm
The intake is a stock 1985 astrovan iron intake for a quadrajet 4 barrel carburetor. As you can see it is very tall.
Here is the intake I described before that will be going on eventually.
Here is some more info on the engine and a basic build up:
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/113_0208_chevy_43l_262ci_v6_engine_build/
Post by: Raydar on August 27, 2017, 07:03:36 pm
thanks, the car in Jax. already has a 1994 3.4 camaro engine but also has the aluminum buick Heads not sure if they are 3.1 or 3.3 heads but requested that info, it also has a turbo and was running until it blew the head Gasket.
If it's the 3.4 Camaro engine, and has aluminum heads, they will have to be V6-60 heads. 3100, 3400, or early 3500. (3.3 heads were 90 degree, and will not fit.)
Those heads, with the stock Camaro pistons, will result in absurdly high compression ratios. ~12:1, I think.
OTOH, The iron 2.8/3.4 heads on a FWD 3400 will result in ~7.5 compression.
By the way... the 2.8 EFI, - including S10 and Fiero - and the 3.4 Camaro cast iron heads are identical. That also includes the heads that came on the carbureted Citation X11. All other carbed 2.8 heads were probably the same casting, but were machined for smaller valves.
Quote
I know 1 combo of that engine/ heads will get 8 to 1 Compression and another gets above 10 to 1 now I am sure the Builder knew this when he decided to Turbocharge this engine ,I just don't know the Part numbers used yet and if the pistons were changed to hopefully Forged pistons. I'll figure that out when I pull the Heads to do the Gaskets and also find out the cam used. When it is paid for I should have plenty of time for repairs and to get laps in Somewhere to make it reliable.
you mention the caddy?4.9 V8 FWD is metric BP and then refrence a 3.8 V-6, Is that a FWD 3.8 Or a RWD and are the both of them Metric(60deg.v-6) BP. Like the Grand National Buick used a 200R4 trans and I think that was a Metric also Or was that BOP
I am confused because I had a 455 Buick in a Skylark that I installed a 200R4 in and it says Metric on the Tranny Pan,we know the 455 wasn't Metric anything.
I don't recall seeing a 3.8 swap but 3.4's seem common. the 90Deg has Lots of performance upgrades availible but not so much for the 3.4
The "metric" bellhousing apparently came on the 3800 FWD and the 95 and later 3800 F body blocks.
I found some info about the 200R4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic
THM200-4R
For the 1981 model year, the 200-4R (sometimes called 200R4) was introduced. The components which were prone to failure in the THM200 were improved, and in the later 80's this transmission was used with high-power applications — primarily the Buick Grand National and the 1989 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Indy 500 Pace cars. The 200-4R was configured with several different torque converters and gear ratios depending on the vehicle application.
Unlike the 700R4, most 200-4Rs have a multicase bellhousing for use with Chevrolet, Buick/Olds/Pontiac (BOP), and Cadillac engines. However, 200-4Rs share mounting locations with the TH-400. Since the external dimensions are similar to the TH-350 (overall length, drive shaft yoke spline count/diameter and general size), 200-4Rs are often swapped in place of TH-350s in older vehicles to provide an overdrive gear.
The THM200-4R can be found in the following vehicles:
1981-90 B-Bodies
1981-84 C-Bodies
1984-88 G-Bodies
1985-90 D-Bodies
1981 Pontiac Firebird (with 301cid engine, non-turbo)
1989 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Indy Pace car (with Buick V6 and a Turbocharger)
The THM200-4R was phased out after 1990; its final usage was in the GM B-body vehicles.
With all of that said, there is one other engine that has the "metric" bellhousing. That's the LS4 V8 that came in the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP.
It came with a specific 4T65E automatic, that mounted the starter "backwards" on the trans, instead of on the block. A few have been swapped into Fieros, but it's complicated and expensive to do it.
So for the "metric" bellhousing.... (Not to be confused with the "200R4 'metric'") you have the pushrod V6-60. All of them; The later 3800; the 4.5 and 4.9 Caddy V8s (not sure about the 4.1, but nobody really cares :D ); and the LS4.
Oh yeah... And the Northstar V8 and "Shortstar V6" - sort of. (One mounting hole is relocated.)
Edit - Wow... Sorry for the verbal diarrhea.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 07:04:59 pm
I guess my memories are wordy. My point was that I remember the advent of the internet, and the change from before to after, as well as the changes in computers and how they have impacted our lives.
Post by: GTXVette on August 27, 2017, 08:21:38 pm
raydar, so the 96 up 3.8 90 deg v-6 will bolt in sorta,? is that the same as a 3800 engine. I mean they have some 3.8 GN's making 700+ HP, so parts are there.
Yes the car has the buick 3400 ? heads but I don't have the Part Numbers and I had been told one version did keep the Compression lower but not sure any more. I guess that means it most likely has a piston set to lower the Comp.
Losing the Blazer as a parts car Hurt my Finances more than I thought it would, and It will be about Christmas before my SS checks can pay it off, but what the heck, they do it every year and next year I can spend another dollar on it. L O L:)
Post by: GTRS Fiero on August 27, 2017, 09:07:10 pm
Post by: fiero4.3L on August 28, 2017, 06:59:38 am
How long did the swap originally take you?
I guess my memories are wordy. My point was that I remember the advent of the internet, and the change from before to after, as well as the changes in computers and how they have impacted our lives.
I don’t recall how long it took, but I was in no hurry and enjoy problem solving. The initial installation to driveable wasn’t long but it took much longer to sort out the issues of exhaust to starter clearance, starter to oil filter adapter clearance, rain and water corroding the alternator internally due to its location, air cleaner clearance, coolant routing, access for maintenance, and a solution for controlling the torque reaction of the engine. Some of these issues were unique to the v6 so the sbc swappers didn’t have them when using the kit but they had solid mounting and chassis cutting requirements for the longer engine.
I found some weights I’d measured with the 4.3 at 380 lbs, a v6-60 at 345 lbs and a 4.9 about the same as the v6-60. Sbcs are around 500 lbs.
Thanks Raydar. I’d forgotten about those other engines and completely missed GTX’s post.
Post by: Raydar on August 28, 2017, 09:36:29 am
...
raydar, so the 96 up 3.8 90 deg v-6 will bolt in sorta,? is that the same as a 3800 engine. I mean they have some 3.8 GN's making 700+ HP, so parts are there.
The Camarobird 3.8 is called a 3800. I would expect them to be similar. But I really don't have any idea whether it will bolt into a Fiero.
Of course people are plugging in 3800 SC engines, out of FWD W bodies, on a regular basis. I have also seen pics of a SC'd 3800 in a Camaro. So I have to believe there's some commonality, somewhere.
The 3.8 / 3800 has gone through some major changes over the years. I wouldn't count on anything from "Grand National" vintage being able to be used in a Fiero.
Wikipedia has a really detailed dissertation on the GM 3800, including all(?) the changes. I'll post a link later on. I'm at work now. Need to be busy.
Post by: GTXVette on August 28, 2017, 10:24:42 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 24, 2018, 09:40:54 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 24, 2018, 09:50:08 am
The 3.8 / 3800 has gone through some major changes over the years. I wouldn't count on anything from "Grand National" vintage being able to be used in a Fiero.
Wikipedia has a really detailed dissertation on the GM 3800, including all(?) the changes. I'll post a link later on. I'm at work now. Need to be busy.
I used to have a Fiero with what I was later told was the GN engine. That Fiero was fast. Apparently, around 1990, Buick was pulling out of NASCAR, and Buick built an engine to outdo themselves. I believe it was a turbo V6. Whatever the engine, it was in a Fiero, and that Fiero was a handful. The buyer told me a bit about the engine. I couldn't afford that car, and sold it quickly. I remember almost nothing about the car, other than that it cost about $5K more than I had to spend.
Post by: Raydar on February 24, 2018, 10:53:46 am
If it was the GM Metric pattern, it would have bolted to the Fiero trans with no issues. If it had the B-O-P pattern (as I always suspected the Grand National did) then it would have required an adapter plate. Regardless... if it was anything like the GN engine, it was insanely fast.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 24, 2018, 12:31:33 pm