Georgia Fiero Club Forum
All Things Fiero => Tech Tips, Tech Questions => Topic started by: PK on October 07, 2018, 03:09:08 pm
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And now on to the next task...I noticed a year or so ago, after sitting unused for more than half a year, when I took dangermouse out of the lockup for an airing that there was a small spot of water underneath.
Now my mission is to track it down and fix. From an initial reccy, there is the shine of water at the water pump but on the top of the housing rather than underneath! I need to get out in good light and have a further investigate with the car running but would appreciate any advice at this early stage.
If the water pump needs to come off anyway to fix the leak I will probably replace it, even if it isn't the cause of leak. Can you recommend a brand of water pump please, with metal impeller? If anyone has a part number I can try and cross reference that would also be handy. Do the pumps normally come with a gasket? I also understand that a clamp is available to hold the timing cover in place during fitment?
Are there any other items that will be required for pump replacement as it won't just be a case of popping out to the shop if I miss anything.
The car is a 1986 2.8.
Cheers
PK
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The water pumps from TFS come with a gasket, but even they recommend using a different (better) gasket.
Get the gasket for your thermostat housing, if you remove that.
I suspect your problem, though, is a leaky cap. Simple to replace, if so. You can wrap some paper towels over the cap, and down the housing, hold in place with a rubber band, and go for a drive. If the paper towels end up wet, you have your answer.
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Over here, AutoZone Auto Parts stores have their own brand. You can read in the description that it comes with a gasket and a bracket. That bracket/clamp must be installed before removing the old water pump. It's used to keep the timing cover sealed against the block, preventing a continuous leak that can allow coolant into the oil pan.
At PartsTrain.Com they list a Gates water pump. Has the gasket and clamp. If they will ship to you. Gates is a good brand over here.
http://www.partstrain.com/store/details/Pontiac/Fiero/Gates/Water_Pump/1986/GT/6_Cyl_2-dot-8L/GAT43092.html?vdesc=true
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Thanks for the info that great. Parts train will send the water pump.. shipping is . .. 126.69 and then handling and other made up costs will probably be another 50+. But not too worry I will make a list and ask Todd.
I hope it's the thermo cap but that is relatively new and replaced a few years ago with radiator. Really hoping it's something simple but fear it may be the gasket behind the pump.
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My BRAND NEW Stant cap leaked.
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I managed to pop in to hangar for 5 mins and the water is quite a bit forward of the cap. Checking will definitely be the first step though as easy to do.
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Those PartsTrain prices are absolutely ridiculous. You might do as Proff in Australia does. Parts for his Toyota and Jeep Liberty are very expensive in Australia. He's purchased parts and had them shipped to me, then I ship them to him. Even with the two shipping expenses, it's way cheaper than shipping direct, if they will even ship overseas. Maybe Todd can do that for you.
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I would be stuck without Todd. He shops around and collects parts from various sources then bundles them up and sends in one box. I would be lost without his help.
Sir Rodney of Dickman has also gone out of his way to send bits with an order that he wouldn't normally stock.
Hopefully this weekend I will get a chance to have a look at what's going on with the leak.
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Forward of the cap, as in, toward the firewall? Be the cabin-side valve cover? There are 2 sensors there: the cold start switch, and the fan switch. If they aren't installed correctly, they could leak. There is a hose coming off the thermostat housing. Is that hose leaking? Of course, there is the gasket on the water pump.
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Today I finally got the time to adjust the timing and then moved onto the water leak.
I cleaned up the existing mess, and observed the leak eminating from the pump area where it meets the pulley.... Sigh. Pump time? I will start spraying the bolts now! It doesnt look like much funto access. My friend has a mk 1 soarer with water pump on the end with an acre of space for access so he had a good chuckle at my pump location.
So my shopping list is:
Gates water pump including gasket and clamp
Is there a high quality gasket I could fit if gates one not up to it?
Thermo housing gasket (can't do any harm to have it spare).
I did wonder about replacing the timing chain while I have the pump off but there are no obvious signs that it is struggling.
Oubt else I might need for this task?
PK
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Gates products are one of the major brands over here. They've long been one of the major belt manufacturers. The gasket should be good, but if you want, you could also purchase one made by FelPro. If it's available over there, there's a product made by PermaTex. It's a gasket sealer. It may be sold under the name of Form-A-Gasket. It's a brown sticky sealer. Some of the FelPro gaskets suggest putting them on naked without any sealer.
When you receive your new water pump, keep it beside you when removing the old one. Get the clamp on and tightened down really good before loosening any pump bolts. Be sure that you have the bolts removed from each location. I've heard of people overlooking one particular bolt and breaking something when trying to remove the pump.
You might ask on PFF if anyone can provide a picture of the clamp installed. It's been posted several times. Patrick may be the one that will eventually provide it. He seems to have a good archive.
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If it's a V6, pay particular attention to the recommended water pump bolt tightening specs. There's one that's on a sort-of free-floating tab of metal, and if you tighten it too much, you will break the tab, and ruin the water pump.
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Maybe that's the breaking point I remember people mentioning.
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Great info thanks chaps. I will get the bits ordered and report back.
Cheers
PK
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Just perusing my pics of the water pump leak and unusual location near top of pump ...I can see a line. . Might be casting mark or possibly fracture? The water initially appears from the shiny patch nearest the pulley and then tracks out . I guess it doesn't really matter as will replace pump anyways.
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Looks like a crack, or fracture, to me, too. Usually the bearings go, and the shaft seal leaks, but it looks as if the case cracked.
I highly recommend using a tensioner pulley, to prevent overtightening and belt squeal issues.
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I have never had the belt squeal issue... Maybe this is why!!
The odd leak position and the position of that line would certainly coincide with water leaking off the underneath of that possible crack and pooling below.
I will have to update my shopping list. Is the tensioner pulley a sir Rodney component?
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Dodgerunner on PFF sells the tensioner pulley. You'll need a different length belt to go with it.
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Ahh yes thanks, dodgerunner. I have sent him an email about a kit.
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I think he is on the vendor list in the newsletter.
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But the kit, complete with correct belt. Keep the part number for future reference. The dodgerunner tensioner is the easiest money you’ll forgot you’ve spent! ...forgot, because you’ll never here a squeaky belt again and have to read forum posts from poor saps whom are still struggling with those woes to remember...
Money well spent!
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That's the part I didn't get. If you get the part number for the belt, let me know.
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Part number for the belt is "Gates K050450 (45")" according to DR
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For the stock belt, or the belt with the tensioner?
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That's the belt with the tensioner kit,
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With the tensioner. Odd. I thought I replied asking which that was, but the post vanished.
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Just an update:
Super Todd has confirmed he can source all the bits on my shopping list.
Dodgerunner belt tensioner kit ordered.
Now just the agonising wait........I am on a little island called the Isle of Wight this week so no Fiero time but will do some more spraying of bolts on my return! I suppose I can also start removing bits for access while waiting.
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The Beatles...
"Every summer we can rent a cottage in the Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear..."
And to think that you're already there. Are you 64?
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I might be by the time my bits arrive. ;D
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The super Todd package has arrived.
Metal impeller, check. Holdy bracket, check. Two gasket options, check. Thermo housing gasket, check. New AC belt, check (AC not used/needed but it looked ropey). New coil to rebuild orig dist, check. Some new jubilee clips...Ch.... ermm think they must be for water pipes?
Just need the DR tensioner kit now but plenty to do before then, including land rover waxoiling.
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I'm not judging, but waxoiling?! Like, giving your car a bikini wax, and coating the car with dust-attracting oil?
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Yes that's it. :D
Because of our beautiful climate, salty roads and modern cars being made from 80% cheese.
Tishabelles 8 year old land rover will be an MOT test failure in the next couple of years without action. Fiero fine as only used in the summer.
My work ve-hickle (18 years old) used all year round on farm tracks and does twice the mileage of the Landrover is fine underneath as it has a far lower cheese percentage.
It is unlikely to attract dust as dust involves dry. ;D
On my boikes I use acf50 which is brilliant stuff. I can coat my on/off-road boike in the summer.... It looks manky as oubt after winter as all the mud/grit very sticks to it but when washed off the next summer it is beautifully corrosion free underneath.
Landrover all done now. I used a combination of waxoiling sealant for the underbody, waxoil spray for component joints and cavities and dinitriol 3125 hs for the suspension components, spring towers and box sections. The first thing I found when crawling underneath was a nail in a tyre sidewall which alone made the job worth doing.... And a lot more expensive!
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If full-time AWD, must replace all 4 tires. I picked up a nail in a construction area. Same deal, no repair.
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It uses a Haldex coupling so auto adjusts to 4wd when required so neither permanent 4wd or 2wd or selectable. Fix involved 2 new very expensive tyres, "luckily" to one of more worn fronts. :o
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The DR Belt tensioner that he kindly sent on the 05nov managed to cross the USofA and the Atlantic in 2 days. It then fell into the incompetent mittens of royal fail who spent the next 14 days swearing black and blue that they didn't know where my parcel was guv!!!
After daily pesterings, It magically appeared today, 15 days later..... After I paid a further £12.50 "handling fee'.... Which since they spent 15 days "handling" it doesn't work out to bad when calculated as a day rate lolzio!!
So have all the bits now. I can't get DRs linky dink instructions for fitment to work so will just have to work that out.
Next problem, 7 day weeks for the rest of the year..
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Does this linky dink work for anyone else?
http://home.windstream.net/dodgerunner/Fiero1_files/InstrPage.html
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Works fine.
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Thanks will have to try and find the loan of one of them computer things to view it then as no Worky with tellingbone.
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Here is the document. Maybe this will help.
v6 spring belt tensioner.pdf (http://gafieroclub.org/pics/pip/tshark/v6 spring belt tensioner.pdf)
Some sites are blocked overseas.
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Ahh yes thanks, that works great. DR had kindly emailed the PDF too. Just need some time to start the job. ..
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Finally got a day off!!! I made the mistake of checking the service intervals of my work car first. ... New cam belt time. .. And glow plugs.... And service. Arghhhh.
I did get a chance to put the Fiero in position.... Drain coolant. And start removing the alt bracket which needs to come off in order to fit the special bracket. Battery out.
I removed the four water pump pulley bolts. The pulley really didn't feel like going anywhere though. Are there clearance issues if it remains attached or can it be left on until the water pump is removed from the ve-hickle?
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The answer is... There is enough clearance to remove with the pulley still attached. However after an evening of soaking in penetrating oil, it came off fine while still in situ.
I noticed today that a number of my coolant rubber hoses are looking tired. Is there a complete set available (not Fiero store) and does anyone have part numbers please?
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You can buy many piecemeal from Rodney. He may be willing to bundle them.
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Great thanks. I am looking there, he has them under 1988 hoses... Can't see 86 hoses but I will make what will inevitably be a massive list of other lovely bits and ask him about the hoses.
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There are at least 4 that include the '86. Do a parts search for "hose".
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#30 and #31 from this linky dink are the ones I definitely need http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=344&osCsid=0c71973aaa8ac64fd241170c29dc3abb
I am guessing since just separately these won't fit my 86?
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88907432, for the right pipe to water pump hose from Rock Auto. I'll look for the other one later.
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Some of the 87 and 88 hoses are different from the 85 and 86. There is also a small hose for the heater bypass that comes off the water pump that's only on the 85 and 86.
OEM part numbers are as follows.
10041086---Crossover to left water rail. This hose is no longer available at retail outlets. We commonly use a flexible hose that's slightly longer than stock.
10036850---Right water rail to water pump inlet. #30
10032771---Thermostat housing outlet to crossover pipe. #31
10024732---Left front upper radiator hose. Left water rail to radiator. #27
10024909---Right front lower radiator hose. Right water rail to radiator. #29
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Ahhhh thanks for that, forgot about rockauto for parts number searching. I tried gates website in the hope they had UK location but no luck.
Sir Rodney is on the case as I have been holding off on buying some goodies.. But now there is a good excuse. He says #31 for the 88 will fit mine ok if I beg enough he may be able to source me the correct #30 from a local parts place.
Thanks for the help.
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FF that's brilliant thank you. I think replacing them all is probably a good plan.
I got time this morning just to check all of the water pump bolts will crack loose... Now just need to find time for remove/clean/replace....
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PM MikeMac. He recently ordered the kit for his 86 and found that the crossover to coolant rail hose was too short. We used the flexible hose mentioned above. He can probably tell you what the proper hose number is.
Did you get a water pump with the timing cover hold-down bracket, and did you use it?
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Thanks FF, I am much better informed now.
I did indeed get the magical bracket with my pump....I then did some head scratching and modifying before realising you need to remove the alt bracket. Thought about making my own bracket to fit with alt bracket still in place but decided to remove as everything needs a good clean anyway. .... So yes bracket installed.
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Rodney sent me this linky dink https://www.autozone.com/cooling-heating-and-climate-control/hose-lower?filterByKeyWord=fiero+radiator+hose&fromString=search&isIgnoreVehicle=false&model=fiero&newYmme=true
And asked me which hose it is!.... Since I can't manage to cross-reference the part numbers and there is no description on the site, I guess it's down to hose shape! #30 looks like part number D71272 on that site????
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I'll try to send you a PDF file for the Fiero P22 Parts Book. You may be able to compare shapes in the diagram to what you need. Page 51 has a diagram of the engine compartment and Page 52 has the part number and description.
Download and save to a USB drive or CD for future reference.
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Thanks FF. I have the P22. Just can't cross reference the GM number to any of the Rodney numbers!
I could go by the shape but a bit of a risk with the cost/hassle of posting.
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Just for info I also found a handy guide on Fierosails
http://www.fierosails.com/RadiatorCap.html
I think #30 must be "Lower - Lateral Pipe to Engine 21594"
And also "We understand but cannot confirm first-hand that Advance Auto part no. E72003 will replace the "lateral pipe to engine" hose, although it is longer and must be cut on both ends to fit properly. Also, the end which attaches to the engine (water pump inlet) is a tight fit."
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Thought I would have time to at least get the pump off today and start cleaning up gasket and things...
All 12 water pump bolts removed but the pump is going absolutely nowhere! Is it normally an epic battle or have I missed something other than the 12 bolts?
I have sprayed, rubber malleted and strategically levered without any movement whatsoever!
Has the pump just plopped off for others who have done this?
Cheers
PK
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Ignore that. I went back for a final attempt of the day with a different wooden drift and it came off fine.
It is definitely the original water pump. That crack line in the case I posted earlier in the thread did extend to the sealing surface but was not through the whole depth... So not responsible for the water leak.
I knew there was a weep hole at the bottom of the pump. ... But on mine there is also a hole tucked in the sector where water was seen gathering. So it seems my water pump was crying a bit but from that top hole.
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The gaskets sometimes stick. Make sure to remove all remnants of the old gasket, prior to installing the new pump.
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I have a good few days worth of gasket removal, cleaning/checking other components whilst in there. I will have some new bits to install as Rodney found my hose.... And sells an alternator bracket strengthener/support. And Dodge runners tensioner to fit and some general painting and waxoiling. I always work on the theory that it will be me doing the job again next time, so might as well do it right.
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Any job worth doing is worth doing right.
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This 32 year old gasket is tough stuff!!
It laughed in the face of locitite gasket remover repeatedly. Plastic razor blades.... No good. Hard plastic gasket scraper... No good.
I have a beautiful metal tool for removing gasket on boike enjuns but not really suitable for the material or location on Fiero.
I had a think about what enemies paper gasket has...fire ...ooooh but maybe not ... Water...ahaa. so I soaked a sponge and left it resting on the gasket surface and this morning had way more success. Still some to go though.
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New water pump fitted. As notes to myself for next time.
Luxury of three perfectly set torque wrenches for each of the bolt sizes. I went for 7lbft M6, 14lbft M8 and 22lbft M10. With exception of #12 which I shimmed the void behind casting and then did to 7lbft only. Will check sump and pump bolts after a few trips.
Fascinating facts, a normal click and cam type torque wrench will normally read high if it has been sat for a while so with such small values always excercise the torque wrench in vice or however at least 3 times before addressing the intended target.
RTV threads of #4. All others anti seize.
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When I worked for a GM dealer back in my late teens, they taught us to set a clicker torque wrench back to "0" when one was finished using it.
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The setting to zero is a great idea with most click and cam. Some manufacturers specify a small value rather than zero but either way its better than leaving them wound on. Whereas on a clutch type torque wrenchs (normally large torque values) letting the torque wrench off too far can alter the readings as the adjustment shims can move....and then take some resettling.
Even if reset to zero after use the torque wrench will still require exercising before use. For example my 22lbft read 25.??lbft first pull, then 23.?? Then 21.?? Then I adjusted to exact value. Then repull 3 times ...then it was ready for action.
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Except for the beam torque wrench I once owned, I have never used them for loosening a nut or bolt. That was another thing GM taught. I don't know how the mechanism works in a ratcheting torque wrench, but apparently GM thought it would upset accuracy. Craftsman used to offer free recalibration every few years. I don't know if they still do, or not. My 250 ft.lb. wrench has never been recalibrated, but it's actually never been used but maybe a half dozen times in its lifetime.
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I see them being used as breaker bars and all sorts!?! Definitely not a good idea.
Free recalibration sounds like a great offer especially for those in frequent use.
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DR belt tensioner fitted. Alt fitted. Just need to put on a few pulleys hopefully this eve.
Then all the other bits to go back on but it's getting there...
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Pulleys and Belts fitted. Lolzio at the air con belt/adjust ridiculous access.
Some new coolant hoses fitted. Starter fitted minus hamster.
Oil added, remembered imperial and US quarts are not the same.
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The Beatles...
"Every summer we can rent a cottage in the Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear..."
And to think that you're already there. Are you 64?
And another 6 months has flown by as I'm back to the Isle tomorrow (every 6 months!!)
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Fiero worky no water leaky.
Thanks to all for the help.
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Well heck, you should be ready to get your Fiero out on the road.
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The plan now is to clean all the underside. Lift front and remove wheel well liners. Clean and inspect front.
Then I have a fuel filter to change and coolant change to do.
I will no doubt find other bits along the way. Then an MOT test and DRIVE DANGEMOUSE this summer wooohoo.
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I commend you for taking your time and doing it right. Surely your Fiero will return many years of reliable service.
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Thanks. A lot of time is spent waiting for parts but I do work really really slowly and it has to fit in to a few hours here and there but enjoy the tinkering as much as the driving.
I know that Fram don't have a great reputation for oil filters but are their fuel filters ok? I have some on my squirrelled away Fiero parts. If no good, what is a good brand?
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Surely your Fiero will return many years of reliable service.
... and don't call me Shirley. ;)
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Lolzio.
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Underneath clean, paint. Replace some fasteners/bolts with nice stainless etc - DONE
The application of ACF50 every year or so to the entire underneath makes it come up really nice
Coolant change now no leaky - DONE
The fuel filter on there is a Fram and seems to have done OK so will just swap for another Fram from my Fiero supplies..
Going to do brake fluid change while everything is accessible.
Then put the bits back together, wheel well liners etc etc.
Then have some time end of June to MOT test and drive.... Hmmm when is RFTH again? ;0)
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Ughhh. I did my own final inspection (thorough) before booking Dangemouse in for MOT test (somewhat less thorough!!).
I have handled the wheels and tyres dozens of times while doing all of the tinkering.. . Only on final inspection did I notice a bulge in inside wall of a tyre AND a coinciding slight buckle to rim. Ughhhh.
The tyres are very very old and I had convinced myself that they would do one last summer and then in winter I would refurb wheels and put new tyres on.....well that will still happen but not going to have it on the road this year.
Disappointed but will at least be ready for action next summer.
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Yeah, my Fiero is again down for the summer.
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I gave in and have sent my wheels to "rimscarnated" for truing and powder coat. The tyres that were made in the 45th week of the year 2000 are in the bin. New Yokohama AD08Rs waiting for my wheels to return.
I won't have time to MOT test till September now but am determined it will be this year. .......
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Good for you.
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The wheel "expert" turned my week long wheel refurb into a 3.5 month disaster.
Anyway mainly posting to let you all know another 6 months have passed since the last IOW voyage and I am currently sat on the ferry on what will be my last work trip here as we have a new guy much closer...... He was supposed to be coming over this time to learn the ropes..... But just phoned to let me know he set fire to his car trying to jump start the van... Ferry missed.
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Remind me. Where do you go on the ferry?
Sorry to read about your troubles with the wheels.
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The Isle of Wight. . . Its an even smaller island off the South coast of England.
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I took a ride on a ferry, but it got away, and they had to send a tugboat after us. Now, that ferry is no longer on a cable.
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The Isle of Wight. . . Its an even smaller island off the South coast of England.
Made famous in the Beatles' song "When I'm Sixty-Four".