Post by: scottb on April 29, 2020, 09:02:11 pm
Anyone need a milkshake?
I think I know where all of the coolant went:
CHARLIE!!!! YOUR CAR IS PEEING ON MY FLOOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;)
Post by: Fierofool on April 29, 2020, 09:25:29 pm
Post by: scottb on May 01, 2020, 07:02:25 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 01, 2020, 07:45:22 pm
I've been thinking about just leaving the pan and timing cover on the engine and just swapping out the water pump, sensor switches and the valve covers, intake, fuel rail and injectors and vacuum lines. It would make things easier and quicker. I do want to swap out most of my brackets since they're cleaner than what's on the replacement engine. And I have to swap the front exhaust manifold.
I need to bring some painter's tape to tape over the intake like I should have done before.
I can work on my engine while you guys address other things.
Post by: Raydar on May 01, 2020, 10:44:58 pm
I need to fog the cylinders in the replacement engine. Ideally, inspection with a bore scope would be the thing to do.
Have you got access to one? I've got one, of sorts. It told me "bugger all" when I was looking for dents in the Honda's pistons, though. (When the timing belt broke and introduced the valves to the pistons.) Turns out, there were no real dents to see.
But it may work for looking at cylinder walls.
Post by: NoMad on May 02, 2020, 09:18:29 am
Post by: Fierofool on May 02, 2020, 09:51:36 am
Now, does anyone have the timing gear cover clamp used when replacing the water pump? I've decided I'm going to leave the 86 cover and pan on the engine and just swap water pumps.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 02, 2020, 09:57:58 am
Post by: NoMad on May 02, 2020, 12:38:00 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 02, 2020, 01:32:42 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 02, 2020, 01:56:18 pm
Anybody got one? I just checked with Pat and he doesn't.
Post by: Fierofool on May 07, 2020, 05:23:12 pm
Post by: TopNotch on May 07, 2020, 08:57:54 pm
I just received my clamp. Came in from Hendersonvile, NC, wrapped in an Ingles sales paper.So you not only have a clamp, but you know which groceries are on sale. ;)
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 07, 2020, 09:17:41 pm
Post by: scottb on May 10, 2020, 10:38:08 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 10, 2020, 10:55:49 am
Why are there 2 hose clamps on the outlet from the thermostat housing to the heater core?
Post by: Fierofool on May 10, 2020, 11:15:03 am
I just received my clamp. Came in from Hendersonvile, NC, wrapped in an Ingles sales paper.So you not only have a clamp, but you know which groceries are on sale. ;)
Yes. It was an old sales paper. Pretty much like some of the meats and produce they sell.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 10, 2020, 11:18:42 am
Post by: scottb on May 10, 2020, 11:28:49 am
Why are there 2 hose clamps on the outlet from the thermostat housing to the heater core?
shadetree meck-a-nick way of stopping a leak
besides, 2 are better than 1
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 10, 2020, 11:32:11 am
Post by: scottb on May 10, 2020, 05:20:50 pm
Zack and Mark did a little rust repair:
Post by: Fierofool on May 10, 2020, 10:20:05 pm
While everything is out, it may be a good time to get the rust off the thermostat housing.
It has already been removed and the one from the 86 is ready to go on it.
Post by: NoMad on May 10, 2020, 11:13:49 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 11, 2020, 09:58:09 am
Post by: scottb on May 11, 2020, 05:03:21 pm
Post by: scottb on May 11, 2020, 05:04:09 pm
Post by: scottb on May 15, 2020, 05:40:08 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 15, 2020, 07:19:16 pm
Start transferring from the old to the new.
Got any pipe dope?
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 15, 2020, 07:24:09 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 15, 2020, 07:29:06 pm
I pulled the starter to get the pan off, but that makes it easier to see the mounting boss.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 15, 2020, 07:34:50 pm
Post by: scottb on May 15, 2020, 07:56:01 pm
Post by: scottb on May 15, 2020, 07:56:49 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 15, 2020, 08:06:34 pm
Post by: scottb on May 15, 2020, 08:17:56 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 15, 2020, 08:29:36 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 16, 2020, 08:56:14 pm
We verified that the crankshaft is internally balanced by the casting number on the rear throw. I have a new neutral balanced
Post by: NoMad on May 16, 2020, 09:04:55 pm
Post by: scottb on May 16, 2020, 10:08:38 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 16, 2020, 10:40:39 pm
I think he means new neutral balance flywheel to install.....
Fixed.
Post by: Fierofool on May 21, 2020, 06:13:37 pm
Speak up if you're coming so I know how many dozen Krispy Kreme donuts to get.
Post by: MikeMac on May 21, 2020, 09:39:27 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 22, 2020, 12:41:34 am
Post by: Fierofool on May 22, 2020, 08:50:38 am
We also have the clutch to replace in Scott's Formula 4.9. Then drop the engine in the Aqua Fastback and put it into Scott's 86SE. For anyone wanting to know a little more about the inner workings of the Fiero, just come and watch. Keep everyone else company.
Post by: The Art Doctor on May 22, 2020, 07:30:10 pm
Post by: scottb on May 22, 2020, 07:59:40 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 22, 2020, 09:49:22 pm
Post by: The Art Doctor on May 22, 2020, 10:22:02 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 23, 2020, 08:33:42 am
Post by: NoMad on May 23, 2020, 09:28:55 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 23, 2020, 10:15:21 am
Post by: mweldon on May 23, 2020, 03:25:09 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 23, 2020, 07:23:01 pm
Everything but the block, if good, is worth saving. Timing cover, pan, intakes, manifolds and crossover pipe. Even the heads, if they are good.
Post by: Raydar on May 23, 2020, 07:59:38 pm
Between the 2 motors, we probably have everything. There's 1 pile that will go to the parts barn. The other pile will go on the replacement motor if we can figure out where it goes.
Everything but the block, if good, is worth saving. Timing cover, pan, intakes, manifolds and crossover pipe. Even the heads, if they are good.
Yes... by all means save the heads. If there are no cracks (cracks are very unlikely) they should be rebuildable with only a slight decking in addition, to correct warpage.. (My 3.4 heads, that I sent off for porting, came from the back room at the Fiero Factory, at random. They're quite... resilient.)
The block is probably okay too, if you have someone who is looking for a 2.8 short block core. Otherwise, it'll make a great anchor. :D
Post by: mweldon on May 23, 2020, 10:07:11 pm
I've been keeping everything unless its cracked/broken or rusted beyond the point of reuse.
Post by: NoMad on May 23, 2020, 10:21:54 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 23, 2020, 10:55:06 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 08:58:18 am
Between the 2 motors, we probably have everything. There's 1 pile that will go to the parts barn. The other pile will go on the replacement motor if we can figure out where it goes.
Everything but the block, if good, is worth saving. Timing cover, pan, intakes, manifolds and crossover pipe. Even the heads, if they are good.
Yes... by all means save the heads. If there are no cracks (cracks are very unlikely) they should be rebuildable with only a slight decking in addition, to correct warpage.. (My 3.4 heads, that I sent off for porting, came from the back room at the Fiero Factory, at random. They're quite... resilient.)
The block is probably okay too, if you have someone who is looking for a 2.8 short block core. Otherwise, it'll make a great anchor. :D
I had a head gasket coolant leak on a Saturn. They milled the heads, as a matter of course. I had told them not to mill the heads, but they knew better. They never even checked if the heads were warped or not. It was just their policy. The engine never ran right again. It sounded as if the pistons were hitting the heads.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 09:03:16 am
I'll be there. A dozen donuts per person should be fine.
How many people actually ate 1 dozen donuts?
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 09:10:55 am
Yall tell me, my internal clock is set to wake me up at 0345
I remember the roosters waking me up early. One morning, I was awake that early, and figured I'd get even, so I ran in there with my dog. The roosters were not thrilled. I made a point of "cockle-doodle-do-ing" loudly, over and over, while running after the roosters. When the dog and I tired of this, I went back to bed. There were several mornings of peace and quiet.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 09:19:01 am
Post by: Fierofool on May 24, 2020, 11:28:57 am
Scott eliminated the throttle body tubes on the thermostat housing. The old motor is stripped, off the cradle and hanging on the chain hoist. The water pump was installed, then removed. One bolt hole is stripped in the timing cover. Scott will helicoil that one so I don't have to change out from the old motor.
Sensors were removed and transferred to the new engine. Thermostat housing, timing cover and CTS had to be ordered.
Photo by Scott Brown
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 09:11:40 pm
Post by: scottb on May 24, 2020, 09:19:20 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 24, 2020, 09:22:31 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 24, 2020, 09:34:55 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 25, 2020, 08:38:09 am
Post by: Raydar on May 25, 2020, 09:04:03 am
Is there a deadline being approached?
I'm guessing that Charlie is getting "antsy".
(I know that I do. When I see a light at the end of the tunnel, I want to run towards it.)
Of course I could be wrong.
Post by: Fierofool on May 25, 2020, 09:44:51 am
I, personally have accomplished very little. I seem to run out of steam quickly. Had it not been for everyone coming in to help out, I might have just eventually pushed it out the door.
Because of all the assistance from the club, I plan to make it another Club Loaner Car.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 25, 2020, 10:03:35 am
Each part must be broken down, and given a deadline. If all the component deadlines are made, everything comes in on time. Haste makes waste. I believe that, if you're having to rush, you failed in either planning or execution. I do a lot of planning, but seldom rush.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 25, 2020, 01:05:19 pm
Post by: scottb on May 25, 2020, 06:32:08 pm
What parts do yall want to salvage off of the old engine?
Post by: Fierofool on May 25, 2020, 07:01:03 pm
Post by: MikeMac on May 26, 2020, 12:02:03 am
Personaly, I would like to see the newer engine on the cradle in the next few days..... waiting for the helicoil kit and the water pump gaskets to arrive.
What parts do yall want to salvage off of the old engine?
Let me know what evening you will be at the shop and I'll come over. Just send me a text.
Post by: Fierofool on May 26, 2020, 11:19:57 am
Post by: scottb on May 26, 2020, 12:29:49 pm
Post by: scottb on May 26, 2020, 07:14:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 26, 2020, 07:18:18 pm
Post by: scottb on May 26, 2020, 07:19:37 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 26, 2020, 07:21:10 pm
Post by: TopNotch on May 26, 2020, 07:58:53 pm
Drained the oil out of the old engine this afternoon. .... about the same color and consistency of maple syrupMuch better than looking like black strap molasses.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 28, 2020, 07:35:34 am
Post by: scottb on May 28, 2020, 06:38:57 pm
Charlie, I think we need a checklist written out so that we don't forget anything
Post by: GTRS Fiero on May 28, 2020, 06:43:10 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 28, 2020, 08:15:39 pm
Get all manifold bolts for exhaust manifold and downpipe from my stock.
Oil and filter. Rotele T4 10w30. Purolator or Wix filter. I'll grab that tomorrow.
Reset TDC. I believe it's been turned almost to #4 TDC. Maybe it should be oil primed before we start rotating it.
Once the motor is hanging, swap flywheels and install clutch assembly.
Bolt on all peripherals.
We need to find the proper bolt for the front of the cradle. Rear cradle bolt cradle nut replacement pieces. Good braided ground cable at least a foot long from left lower frame rail to transmission bellhousing.
Have to get plugs or use the ones I've purchased for the 87. I have all the gaskets needed and more.
Post by: scottb on May 28, 2020, 08:58:30 pm
We need to find the proper bolt for the front of the cradle.
I have a sneaking suspicion I could quite possibly know where on of those just might be located
Post by: Fierofool on May 28, 2020, 10:06:51 pm
Post by: scottb on May 29, 2020, 12:08:49 pm
Post by: scottb on May 29, 2020, 10:06:35 pm
Post by: Fierofool on May 29, 2020, 10:14:19 pm
The Son In Law landed tonight and unless he gets sent out on another flight before morning, I will be there a little earlier than expected.
Post by: MikeMac on May 30, 2020, 01:33:48 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 05, 2020, 07:29:40 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 05, 2020, 07:57:15 pm
Got the poly cradle bushings in today, so they're there as soon as the cradle's ready to go back in. Right now, it looks like the only thing to do is start bolting everything back onto the motor.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 05, 2020, 08:40:00 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 05, 2020, 09:00:41 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 05, 2020, 09:21:48 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 05, 2020, 09:27:53 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 06, 2020, 11:18:51 am
Post by: scottb on June 06, 2020, 03:05:11 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 06, 2020, 04:47:34 pm
Post by: scottb on June 06, 2020, 05:48:28 pm
Post by: scottb on June 06, 2020, 09:19:56 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 06, 2020, 09:22:01 pm
Post by: scottb on June 06, 2020, 09:30:18 pm
Post by: The Art Doctor on June 06, 2020, 10:04:24 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 06, 2020, 10:13:36 pm
clamp installed:
Did the bracket require any modifications/trimming?
Post by: Fierofool on June 06, 2020, 11:49:42 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 07, 2020, 08:19:37 am
Post by: scottb on June 07, 2020, 05:31:59 pm
Will need Zack and Mark back Saturday finish their repair on the battery tray.
It also needs to be determined how we are going to repair the damaged cradle nut.
Charlie, which alternator do you want installed? Also, new belts? Can you pick up some antifreeze? Would also recommend a new fuel filter since it has been sitting almost a year.
Almost forgot: plugs and wires?
Post by: Fierofool on June 07, 2020, 07:06:43 pm
Plugs--There is a fresh set of plugs there.
Plug wires ordered.
Original alternator to my old motor.
Fuel filter ordered.
New AC belt ordered for both.
New serpentine belt ordered for 86.
Post by: scottb on June 07, 2020, 07:48:39 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 08, 2020, 10:01:03 am
Photo by ScottB
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Photo by ScottB
Photo by ScottB
Post by: Fierofool on June 08, 2020, 10:20:02 am
After a good power wash.
Photos by ScottB
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 08, 2020, 05:26:38 pm
I see it now has the '88 sender.
Any chance of a close-up with the starter wiring?
What does that extra shock on the cradle connect to?
Post by: Fierofool on June 08, 2020, 06:41:56 pm
The main wiring harness isn't installed, yet so I can't get a picture of the starter wiring.
The small shock is on the early V6's. It was eliminated on the 88 for some reason. I don't know if it was due to the liquid filled front engine mount or that the cradle cross member wasn't in the right place for the mount. I do remember either Melanie's Cutlass Ciera, Chevy Beretta, or Pontiac Grand Am also had that shock. When that shock is bad, you can feel the engine move.
Post by: scottb on June 08, 2020, 06:43:16 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 08, 2020, 06:45:27 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 08, 2020, 06:47:45 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 08, 2020, 07:54:39 pm
In an earlier pic, I had seen the earlier sender.
That was on the replacement engine before things started getting moved over from the old one. Something I noticed is that the oil sending tube seems to stand a little higher than the one on the old engine, which was an 87 engine.
Post by: Fierofool on June 08, 2020, 09:10:20 pm
Any chance of a good pic of the end of the transmission, with the humps?
I thought I had captured the end when I took some pictures for Harbor Freight, but they were from the wrong end. Best I can do to help is to refer you to this thread by Buddy Craigg. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/063783.html
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 08, 2020, 09:15:34 pm
Post by: scottb on June 10, 2020, 07:12:24 pm
Bushings have been replaced. The fronts were a bit overdue, they turned to powder.
Started laying out the wiring harness. .
Been thinking about the cradle bolt repair, I haven't had time to make a bolt plate. I think we should use a new nut and bolt like what was there.
Charlie is going to meet Friday afternoon, i plan on having all of the accessories back on so the group can reinstall everything Saturday.
Will need Mark and Zack to finish the battery tray repair beforehand.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 10, 2020, 07:42:26 pm
Post by: mweldon on June 11, 2020, 01:31:03 pm
Just a plate with two nuts stacked and welded.
here is his floating solution that I have for mine:
I see no reason why we couldn't just develop a solution similar to the weld-in ones... just chemically strip the zinc from some nuts and weld it all up with the bolt installed prior to 'installation' to mitigate any warp.
What time are we meeting Saturday?
Post by: TopNotch on June 11, 2020, 02:33:41 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 11, 2020, 03:57:48 pm
Pat, I had been thinking along that line, too. After giving some thought to what would keep the bolts from loosening in our original idea of a threaded plate, I thought of welding capture nuts onto the plate. The frame is higher than wide, so a plate could be cut longer than the width and almost as wide. Turn it on edge and slide it into the window cut in the side of the rail then lay it down. It wouldn't even need to be welded in.
Maybe we can get the cradle in with just 3 bolts temporarily then do the final solution later.
Post by: Raydar on June 11, 2020, 07:11:16 pm
Maybe we can get the cradle in with just 3 bolts temporarily then do the final solution later.
For what it's worth... If you remove the rear bumper cover, "waffle", and impact bar, the rear of the frame rail is open to the world. If you want to slide something in from the back, that's always an option. May not be useful in this case, but it's there, nonetheless.
Post by: scottb on June 11, 2020, 08:09:37 pm
Maybe we can get the cradle in with just 3 bolts temporarily then do the final solution later.
For what it's worth... If you remove the rear bumper cover, "waffle", and impact bar, the rear of the frame rail is open to the world. If you want to slide something in from the back, that's always an option. May not be useful in this case, but it's there, nonetheless.
With the car on lift I think you can get in to the frame without removing anything
Post by: Fierofool on June 11, 2020, 08:39:40 pm
I've ordered the non-floaters from Rodney. They won't be in until early next week. Like Scott said, cheaper to buy than build.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 11, 2020, 08:42:52 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 12, 2020, 07:19:18 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 12, 2020, 07:46:56 am
Post by: mweldon on June 12, 2020, 11:18:18 am
It's awesome the club is able to do these things.
Indeed it is.. I would gladly pay extra on dues for the club to utilize the shop for meetings, tech sessions etc...even if I never use it for my fiero(s). I'm sure there are lot's of logistical issues for the club to use/rent it in an official capacity... but maybe worthy of a discussion during the meeting?
Post by: scottb on June 12, 2020, 01:14:20 pm
Post by: mweldon on June 12, 2020, 02:01:00 pm
Ummmmmm...... i don't mind a bit while the world has gone nuts, but technically the shop is not mine to be renting out
Yes I remember the situation... I meant the rent/funds would go to the owner if they so chose to do so... :)
Post by: montegut on June 13, 2020, 12:54:42 am
Still hoping to make it to Atlanta one day!
Post by: scottb on June 13, 2020, 06:53:55 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 13, 2020, 07:22:39 am
Post by: NoMad on June 13, 2020, 11:44:47 am
Post by: Raydar on June 13, 2020, 12:01:41 pm
Only advice I have is to get a stubby 15mm wrench
Or an S-shaped wrench.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 13, 2020, 08:41:54 pm
Post by: scottb on June 13, 2020, 09:13:05 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 13, 2020, 09:15:59 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 13, 2020, 09:18:41 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 13, 2020, 09:30:25 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 05:43:33 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 14, 2020, 09:07:43 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 09:48:16 am
Post by: scottb on June 14, 2020, 11:15:24 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 11:55:37 am
Post by: scottb on June 14, 2020, 04:10:29 pm
Will need to install the cradle bolt repairs and hook everything back up.
Charlie, don't let me forget to put oil in the AC compressor
This picture is from Scott. I have other pictures including Standing In The Engine bay, but the file size is so large that to get them under 3K they would be very small. 500 pixels wide and they're still at 4.15 mb.
"Well, the car's on the cradle and it wants to go vroom" Sorry, Harry Chapin. My apologies.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 05:23:59 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 14, 2020, 08:14:33 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 08:20:21 pm
Post by: scottb on June 14, 2020, 08:49:17 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 14, 2020, 08:57:09 pm
Pat, I'll email the pictures to you.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 08:59:52 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 14, 2020, 09:30:24 pm
The guys who worked on the car.
Other pictures from Scott.
Somebody's going to have to explain this one.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 09:41:46 pm
Post by: scottb on June 14, 2020, 09:52:39 pm
the other picture is the remains of the front cradle bushings, the missing parts turned to powder when I drilled them out
Post by: Raydar on June 14, 2020, 10:43:30 pm
Jordan welded the battery tray?
We told Jordan it would good for some real world experience.......
That's something I need to do. Learn how to weld.
But I certainly don't need to experiment on Charlie's (or anyone else's) "azz-paper-thin" sheet metal.
Good show, guys.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 14, 2020, 11:14:48 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2020, 09:03:14 am
Jordan welded the battery tray?
Mark and Zach started the repair and we ran out of time that day. Jordan and Mark worked on it Saturday with Jordan displaying his skills. I never inspected any of the work. I trust the capabilities of all 3.
We got to see Jordan dance a few times when he got some slag falling into his shoe.
Post by: mweldon on June 15, 2020, 12:09:36 pm
Between Zach, myself, and Jordan.. that tray metal was so thin it would literally burn and curl up like lit tissue paper when an arc formed. We were chasing our tails the entire time.... lesson learned...
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 15, 2020, 05:52:35 pm
We got to see Jordan dance a few times when he got some slag falling into his shoe.
The beads were usually considerate enough to jump down my shirt.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 15, 2020, 06:28:13 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2020, 07:02:38 pm
I am surprised at how badly it was eroded. The battery tray was replaced with a Fiero Store tray in the past. Don Hulse did it. I don't know if it was for Scottie or the person who owned it before him.
Apparently the alternator had been overcharging and boiling the batteries for some time judging by the corrosion on the fender wall and the cradle below.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 15, 2020, 07:07:18 pm
I had been pulling my battery, every winter, so corrosion would not go as long. I wonder if a gell battery would be better.
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2020, 07:28:19 pm
A gel battery probably would help to reduce if not eliminate the problem entirely.
Post by: scottb on June 15, 2020, 07:44:11 pm
Post by: TopNotch on June 15, 2020, 08:36:49 pm
I meant for the picture of the GT to go in the thread for that car, but I don't think I communicated that...oops.Fixed!
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2020, 09:17:54 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 15, 2020, 09:35:14 pm
Post by: NoMad on June 15, 2020, 11:08:32 pm
Post by: mweldon on June 16, 2020, 10:15:04 am
Apparently the alternator had been overcharging and boiling the batteries for some time judging by the corrosion on the fender wall and the cradle below.
Maybe, but even my 88GT, which for the most part lived a life of luxury by the PO, always garaged kept, driving only 3-5K miles a year max, still had the same locations of corrosion as yours, just less severe and earlier in the process. The decklid vent, mixed with rain or hose water washing over the battery leads to acidic material pooling on the shelf below.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 16, 2020, 05:04:58 pm
Post by: scottb on June 16, 2020, 07:27:45 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 18, 2020, 07:41:36 pm
Post by: scottb on June 18, 2020, 08:07:09 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 18, 2020, 08:10:09 pm
Post by: scottb on June 18, 2020, 08:51:34 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 28, 2020, 04:42:17 pm
I had left 2 bolts out of the lower intake. One of them required removing the upper intake and loosening the fuel rail for clearance. That was done and the rail and intake were reinstalled. Throttle cable was connected. Transmission cables were connected but not adjusted.
The major thing is that the cradle nut repair from Rodney Dickman was installed and it was really a piece of cake. It wouldnt pass through the window that was cut into the frame, but one of the factory openings at the rear will allow someone with fingers no shorter than mine to insert and push the piece into position. I didn't remove the rear bumper cover to do this. All done within the fenderwell.
Once the cradle nut is in position, and the bolt started, it will not spin. I tightened it down and the plate is large enough that it won't spin inside the frame. The distorted thread nut locks onto the bolt and shouldn't allow the bolt to come loose.
Wiring needs to be put in place and connected, a couple of coolant hoses need to be connected and the slave cylinder and shield needs to be installed. Final steps are to torque the cradle bolts, fill it with coolant and a battery and see what happens.
Scott replaced a window regulator assembly and installed a window and swapped out AC compressors in his Expedition. Easier than a Fiero, he said.
Last time the group was there we were in search of a stubby 18MM wrench. This time, it was a stubby 15MM wrench and an 8MM ratcheting wrench. Does anyone know where they were placed? We looked everywhere they weren't.
Post by: scottb on July 05, 2020, 05:31:52 pm
I had the car running for a few minutes this afternoon. First problem that was noticed was a lack of fuel. Fuel pump fuse was fried. Has enough fuel to run now.
Timing needs to be set, water level checked and thermostat installed. I think there is an exhaust leak on the front manifold also. It might need a battery too, this one doesn't want to charge.
A couple of more miscellaneous items plus the above fixes and it should be good to go.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 05, 2020, 05:44:29 pm
Post by: The Art Doctor on July 05, 2020, 05:45:27 pm
Post by: NoMad on July 05, 2020, 11:31:54 pm
Post by: scottb on July 10, 2020, 07:53:01 pm
It really sound to me like it was running on 4 cylinders, both of us were thinking ignition. First thing was to check firing order.... yep, thats right. Still had a bad miss.
Next, I pulled all of the metal shields around the plug wires. That helped but not right.
Pulled the distributor cap: very corroded. Went to the parts store and got a new one. Running better, but not better enough.
Set timing: does not like 10 degrees.
Fuel pressure check: 42# at start, idles about 40#. That appears good.
We did a compression check. All were a bit low but consistent.
Had it running, still with a miss and Mike started spraying starting fluid around the intake to check for a vacuum leak, no change. He then sprayed some into the intake and it smoothed out...... hmmmm fuel problem? Pressure is good.
Pulled out the stethoscope to listen to the injectors that I could get to, one of them did not sound right. Unplugged that injector, no change. Checked voltage on wiring harness, 12 volt. Wiring harness good, injector not so good.
Will have to pull injectors and have the rebuilder check them, reassemble, set timing, all should be well.
Charlie, you will need a battery and it desperately needs an air filter.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 10, 2020, 07:57:52 pm
Post by: scottb on July 10, 2020, 08:18:43 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 10, 2020, 08:26:18 pm
Post by: Raydar on July 10, 2020, 08:31:10 pm
...
Pulled out the stethoscope to listen to the injectors that I could get to, one of them did not sound right. Unplugged that injector, no change. Checked voltage on wiring harness, 12 volt. Wiring harness good, injector not so good.
12 volts is constant. To fire the injector, the ECM switches ground.
The fact that the two others on that bank are firing would seem to indicate that that part is good, unless there's a broken wire or connection to just that one injector. Not too likely, but just a thought.
Got a Noid light?
Post by: Raydar on July 10, 2020, 08:39:01 pm
Are injectors expensive, or just hard to come by?
They're not too bad, if you buy them from a company that specializes in new/rebuilt injectors, and you know what you need. There are several companies around here, including one that Charlie deals with on a fairly regular basis.
OTOH, If you buy them from parts stores or The Fiero Store, they'll bend you over.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 10, 2020, 08:48:15 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 10, 2020, 09:00:40 pm
The harness is from the original engine in the 86. It purred like a kitten. Nice and smooth, without a miss. That makes me agree that it's an injector.
After Scott's vacation, I'll pull the injectors and take them back. Their operation isn't far from Scott's. Between the shop and his home.
Post by: scottb on July 10, 2020, 09:12:06 pm
...
Pulled out the stethoscope to listen to the injectors that I could get to, one of them did not sound right. Unplugged that injector, no change. Checked voltage on wiring harness, 12 volt. Wiring harness good, injector not so good.
12 volts is constant. To fire the injector, the ECM switches ground.
The fact that the two others on that bank are firing would seem to indicate that that part is good, unless there's a broken wire or connection to just that one injector. Not too likely, but just a thought.
Got a Noid light?
Steve, can walk me through troubleshooting process before I break out the 9 and use real bullets? I have a volt meter and a test light, no noid lights. I understand some electrical theory but have a hard time using it in real life
Post by: Raydar on July 10, 2020, 09:34:54 pm
All measurements are made with the (-) meter probe connected to ground.
The injectors... One of the pins will have a continuous 12V. The other pin will show 12V except when it's pulsed.
This is measured with the injector plugged in.
If you need to measure just the injector connector (unplugged from the injector)... Again, you will see 12V on one side. The other side will show 0V.
You will need to switch your meter to the ohms setting. Probably the 1K scale. As the ECM pulses, you should see the resistance pulse towards 0.
As an alternative, you can leave the meter on "volts". And just connect both leads to the injector connector. You should see 12V "pulsed" as the ECM tries to fire the injector.
Keep in mind that you should see exactly the same signals on 1,3, and 5.
You will also see the same on 2,4, and 6.
(I'm told that all 6 fire at the same time, but I think it alternates between banks.)
With all of that said... I would be inclined to unplug one of the other injectors, and swap connectors between the two. For our purposes, it really doesn't matter which one, but one from the same bank is preferable.
The problem should either stay with the injector (which is how we seem to be leaning) or with the connector. If it stays with the connector, the problem is likely in the injector harness.
You or Charlie should have a spare injector harness laying around. It's the large flat connector that's near the MAP sensor and thermostat housing. Has leads that (duh) go to each injector. It's only about 15" long.
Edit - I forgot about the cold start injector. It's in a circuit by itself, in that harness. (although it may share 12 V.) Ignore it.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 10, 2020, 09:46:53 pm
Post by: Raydar on July 10, 2020, 10:15:27 pm
The injectors fire in batches, one bank at a time.
That's really what I thought, but then I'd read some other stuff that seemed to indicate they all fired at once. Thanks.
(One bank at a time would seem to make more sense, but yeah...)
Post by: Fierofool on July 10, 2020, 10:25:04 pm
Noid light test kits can be rented at the auto parts store to test the circuit, too. I checked AutoZone and none of them seem to have the test kit but it can be ordered for purchase online. I also checked Advance but the spybots in my computer sets me as Jefferson and won't let me look at the availability of any other stores.
Post by: scottb on July 11, 2020, 06:22:11 am
Post by: Raydar on July 11, 2020, 08:04:01 am
You can test the circuit with a test light connected to the ground on the battery and the probe inserted into the positive side of the harness. You can change the test light clip to the positive terminal and insert it into the ground side and with the engine running you should get a pulsed light. If there's a good circuit and the exhaust manifold is cold on that cylinder, it has to be the injector.
...
Yes. If you have a test light, this sounds like the easier/better way.
Post by: Fierofool on July 11, 2020, 08:08:35 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 11, 2020, 08:11:31 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 19, 2020, 03:04:58 pm
As he pulled them, I asked that he give me the numbers from the refurbished 3.1 injectors and the original 2.8 engine injectors. Turns out they are the same injectors. I wanted to be sure that the injectors were large enough to support the engine. The stock 2.8 injectors flow 14.65 lb/hr and with just a few more HP , they are maxed out and would run lean.
With the 2.8 rated at 140 hp and the 3.4 rated at 160, I have been assuming that the 3.1, being exactly in the middle of the 2.8 and 3.1 would also have HP in the middle. About 150. Man, was I wrong. The early 3.1 engines only had 120 HP. Various applications accomplished 129 HP. Even the Beretta GTZ initially had only 135 HP. It wasn't until the later years that the Generation II LHO or T Series 3.1 developed 140 HP.
Since I have a T Series engine, developing 140 HP, same as the Fiero 2.8, We're satisfied that the injectors are sized correctly for the engine.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2020, 03:45:54 pm
| Size | RPO “VIN” | Years | Lbs. | Orient | HP | TQ | Disp. | Comp. | Bore | Stroke | Fuel Delivery |
| 3.1 CIB | LH0 “T” | '88-'96 | 340 | T | 140 | 180 | 192 | 8.9:1 | 89 | 84 | MPFI |
Looking at the numbers, Pontiac did make some effort to make the Fiero V6 have some power.
Post by: scottb on July 19, 2020, 04:27:02 pm
I also threw a couple more injectors into the bag in case the bad one cannot be fixed.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2020, 04:30:02 pm
This would seem to be the 3rd engine in this Fiero.
Post by: scottb on July 19, 2020, 04:35:25 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2020, 04:42:08 pm
Post by: scottb on July 19, 2020, 05:32:12 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 19, 2020, 05:41:00 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 19, 2020, 10:12:43 pm
You forgot to mention that I changed the injector wiring harness first, but that resulted in no change in the way the engine was running.
I also threw a couple more injectors into the bag in case the bad one cannot be fixed.
I felt pretty certain it was the injector after the testing you and I did. Swapping the harness to verify it was definitely the right thing to do to make absolutely sure.
I can pick up the injectors and take them to the injector guy. No sense in Charlie doing all of that driving unless he just wants to take a drive.
Post by: scottb on July 20, 2020, 04:27:07 am
Post by: scottb on July 25, 2020, 02:19:55 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 02:25:23 pm
Post by: scottb on July 25, 2020, 04:50:49 pm
Post by: TopNotch on July 25, 2020, 07:08:19 pm
Post by: The Art Doctor on July 25, 2020, 07:37:15 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 07:59:04 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 08:05:10 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2020, 08:45:28 pm
That's cool, how did it go? Drive good or are there more things to address?
The car isn't registered or insured so I only drove it up the road a hundred yards or so. It really jumps when you punch it in first gear. I recall in my searches that it has about 180 lb ft of torque. I don't know how that compares to the 2.8. I also found that the 3.1 was rated at 140 hp, just like the 2.8, but that was with aluminum heads. I don't know what the hp is now, with iron heads but it's probably less.
It had a pretty good lope to it, so I contacted the original owner. He said it had a stock cam, so we're guessing it's just that the ECM has to relearn after the car is driven for a bit. It is running a little rich.
It even has AC, now.
Post by: scottb on July 25, 2020, 08:47:25 pm
If you have a Youtube or Vimeo account, you can upload it to there and then post it here.
Negative on both of those
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 08:49:28 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 08:50:56 pm
The car isn't registered or insured so I only drove it up the road a hundred yards or so.
How did it get unregistered? I thought you were driving it, when the engine blew a gasket.
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2020, 08:56:54 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 25, 2020, 08:59:42 pm
Post by: Fierofool on July 25, 2020, 09:10:31 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 26, 2020, 11:28:10 pm
I didn't know plates could be cancelled. I may not renew, but have never cancelled them. Did you get a refund?In Georgia if you drop the insurance without cancelling the registration you will get a nice letter from the state with a fine for driving the car without insurance. The state doesn't know the car isn't on the road and assumes you are driving without insurance.
I tried to explain this to my neighbor and he didn't listen. By the time he was done it cost him over $500 in fines and fees and many hours of phone calls!
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2020, 02:41:09 am
Post by: Fierofool on July 27, 2020, 09:42:05 am
Before the invent and utilization of plate readers and the required reporting to the DMV, one of my brothers would insure his car long enough to get an insurance card, then he would cancel it. Most of the time he drove his car for the full year, having only paid 1 or 2 months minimum insurance premium.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2020, 05:22:43 pm
Humorously, after the COP refused to hold an illegal accountable, a guy hit that COP's car, then another COP who happened to be driving by.
Post by: MikeMac on July 27, 2020, 10:09:50 pm
Mandatory automobile liability insurance
If you own or operate a motor vehicle in Missouri, you are required by law to insure that automobile with coverage for injuries you cause to another, for at least $25,000 per person, $50,000 per accident, and $25,000 for property damage. The Department of Revenue is now tracking drivers to make sure they keep their liability insurance policies in force. If you let your coverage lapse you will be subject to suspension of the vehicle's registration and possibly your driver's license.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2020, 10:13:01 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 27, 2020, 10:22:17 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 27, 2020, 10:24:19 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2020, 10:25:36 pm
Post by: MikeMac on July 27, 2020, 10:38:49 pm
Careful! The forum police will be after you, soon.
All Threads Matter. Defund the forum police...
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 27, 2020, 10:47:52 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 28, 2020, 07:30:49 pm
Post by: scottb on July 28, 2020, 07:50:02 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on July 28, 2020, 08:45:48 pm
Post by: scottb on August 06, 2020, 07:13:23 pm
Post by: Fierofool on August 06, 2020, 07:55:17 pm
Pull the 87 timing cover and save. Parts Barn or any member
Pull the 87 oil pan and save. Parts Barn or any member.
Pull the lower intake and save. Parts Barn or any member.
I think there was a head gasket failure and none of the hard stuff is damaged. It would be a good engine for a bore and stroke if there's no physical damage to anything. Otherwise the short block goes to the yard.
Post by: Fierofool on September 13, 2020, 12:26:19 pm
The inside of the engine and the bad side. We could find no clear indication of a blown head gasket nor a leaky lower intake gasket. However, this side was the side where the problem occurred. Notice the washed piston crowns? This side also had a slight amount of surface rust on the cylinder walls.
We also pulled the timing cover to see if there had been a leak there, but even so, there would have been no coolant in the combustion chambers.
Post by: TopNotch on September 13, 2020, 12:36:34 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 13, 2020, 12:45:47 pm
We didn't examine the heads closely, but I think that it would be on only 1 cylinder. This appears to be on the full bank of cylinders.
Post by: Raydar on September 13, 2020, 05:28:41 pm
But I agree with you. No obvious evidence of a leak. The steam-cleaned piston crowns are telling, though.
I might suspect a head crack between those two cylinders. (Or was it all three?)
Post by: TopNotch on September 13, 2020, 08:15:56 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 13, 2020, 08:33:03 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 13, 2020, 08:36:21 pm
This would have been a factory engine with somewhere just over 100K miles on it. It came from Bbristow's 87. I don't think the engine had ever been torn into.
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2022, 03:57:37 pm
I later ordered an Airtex fuel pump and last week had a local shop install it. No good. It wouldn't run. Can't get a refund, only a replacement, after I send back the defective one and they examine and determine if it's bad, or not. So, I had the local shop order another brand and install it. It runs. Got the car home and heard a noise in the engine bay. The brand new water pump we installed less than 100 miles ago is grinding and leaking. So, now it, along with the 87, is parked for time unknown.
Post by: TopNotch on June 15, 2022, 05:32:56 pm
Post by: Fierofool on June 15, 2022, 10:29:42 pm
Does this mean you have no running Fiero?
Correct.