Georgia Fiero Club Forum
All Things Fiero => General Fiero Discussion => Topic started by: Fierofool on September 20, 2021, 01:02:18 pm
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Some of you know that I have taken Scott's Formula to another location to have a fresh look at the problem. I've given the individual the name of Troubleshooter.
Some minor progress has been made and he recently used an oscilloscope to do some diagnostics. Today I received an email as follows:
If I had a dual trace oscilloscope, I could compare traces, to see if the EST signal is advanced or retarded compared to the crank signal, and I could compare the cam signal to the crank signal, to see if there is one pulse for every 16 crank pulses. But I don't have one, and they are expensive.
I wonder if any of your members has a dual trace oscilloscope.
So, with that, does anyone have a dual-trace oscilloscope that I could borrow so he can do some more in-depth diagnostics?
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I don’t but I’m glad progress is being made.
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This the same one that is trying to be sold in the marketplace? Why make the effort if the owner is trying to sell it? Just curious.
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He's wanting to sell because he's frustrated with it. The car was a daily driver before he got it. At the time he got it, it was intermittently running on 4 cylinders, then on 8 then on 4. No common cause. We found that one of the injector fuses was making poor contact in the fuse block. I thin the other problems have come about during the search for the cause of the failing injector bank. I think the issue can be solved, so I took it to someone for a fresh look.
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A couple of update reports.
Sept. 19
This week's update. September 19
I used an oscilloscope to check some things. I checked with the
engine running with A-B jumpered, and then pulled the jumper out to see
if there was any difference. Here's what I checked.
Distributor Reference (pin D8 on the PCM). This is a crank position
signal, and should be a regular square wave with 8 pulses for every
crank rotation. This signal is supplied to the PCM by the distributor.
It looked OK for both cases, considering that the frequency wasn't
steady as the engine sputtered with the jumper out.
Electronic Spark Timing (pin C8 on the PCM). This is supposed to be like
the crank signal, but advanced or retarded as required by the engine.
This signal is supplied to the distributor by the PCM. This also looked
normal. Of course, I couldn't tell if it was advanced or retarded.
Cam Position Sensor (pin C5 on the PCM). According to the manual, this
is supposed to be one pulse for each time the intake valve for cylinder
one is about to open. This signal is supplied to the PCM by the
distributor. This also looked normal, but there's no way I could tell if
it was in the right place.
The belt was thrown when I pulled the jumper in this test, so that's all
I did for now.
There is another line, Bypass (C7 on the PCM), controls whether the ICM
uses the EST signal or the signal directly from the pickup coil to
trigger the spark coil. I need to measure that line with the jumper in
and out to see if that is the mechanism for using fixed park with A-B
jumpered. If so, that would mean that the PCM is doing nothing at all
with A-B jumpered, as far as ignition goes.
But the belt was thrown when I pulled the jumper in the Cam Position
test, so that's all I did for now.
Sept. 21
Today I found that the Bypass signal is always high, which means that the spark is always controlled by the EST siignal, regardless of whether A-B is jumpered or not. So the PCM must send the crank signal directly to the EST output when the jumper is in place, and controls it when the jumper is out. So the timing must be thrown way off when the jumper is out. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that is the cam signal must be way off.
BTW, if the Bypass line is disconnected, the engine really does run directly off the pickup coil, and the ICM shorts the EST line to ground. It actually runs quite smoothly this way, but at a fixed advance. The Bypass line must be a kind of limp home thing in case the PCM spark control completely fails. The Bypass line must be at 5 volts in order for the ICM to use the EST signal.
Also, I figured out why it is throwing the belt. Compared to a picture from Pennock's, the tensioner is in the wrong place. I'd have to make a new home-made bracket to fix it, and get a new belt, because the existing one would then be too long.
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.... So the timing must be thrown way off when the jumper is out. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that is the cam signal must be way off.
If the cam sensor (which is actually in the distributor, and fixed to the distributor housing, I would expect) is keyed to cylinder 1, but it's way off, is it possible that the distributor was reinstalled a tooth off, relative to the cam? And then the plug wires installed advanced or retarded by one "tower", to compensate?
I'm thinking it could be blind luck that I got my distributor reinstalled "correctly", after I removed it. And may explain why I couldn't set my timing correctly with a light. (I set my timing by ear. It runs fine. But when I check it with the jumper/light, it says I have ~20 degrees base timing.)
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I'm sure he's reading this board, but I'll point him here just in case.
Thanks, Steve. Makes sense. I sent you a text about the bracket last night.
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He also told me last night that he had ordered a dual trace oscilloscope.
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Excellent diagnostic work. Good luck with it. I can see why Scott got frustrated.
Sorry I can't offer any help. My electrickery knowledge is nowhere near good enough. I am sure my time electronics box has a dual osc function but not gonna be much use either from here!!
Fingers crossed
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The last update and description is way too technical and complex for me - it's my new fav page!
If y'all are looking for important apprenticeship positions like a crash test dummy or a body to get/test the intensity of electric shocks, I'm in lol ;D :D.
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An update for October 2.
A new bracket was fabricated for the idler pulley. A new and shorter belt was installed due to the repositioning of the pulley. Now, regardless of what the engine does, the belt stays on the pulleys, with or without a jumper in place.
Another tech discovered the distributor was turned one full cylinder and the engine now runs equally well with or without the jumper. Apparently it's necessary that the distributor be matched up perfectly to the cam. In the next few days, the distributor will probably be pulled and moved at least 1 tooth. At the present time, the distributor is turned to the limit the wires will allow, so the distributor would need to be reset.
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Great progress unknown soldiers!!!
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Brilliant news. I'm sure many hours of thought and work have gone into this.
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Well... cool!
What else? Or is that it?
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It was advanced 360°? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "distributor being turned one full cylinder"
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As I understood it, if the wires had been removed from the cap and moved over 1 terminal, it ran. I'm not sure why everything that's supposed to indicate timing like the mark and TDC wasn't productive.
Initially, the chip that Steve provided didn't seem to make any difference. After adjusting the timing, the car seems to run better with Steve' chip than with the one that was in the ECM. He said for the time being, it would remain.
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It was advanced 360°? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "distributor being turned one full cylinder"
Inquiring minds want to know. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
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I'm guessing if it was just 1 position it was 45° off or thereabouts.
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Which way did they move the wires? I had the distributor moved 1 tooth in either direction, nothing looked like it was lining up correctly
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They didnt move the wires. They rotated the distributor the equivalent. The distributor will be pulled to sealing the teeth and the distributor will be put back in its proper position. No wires are or will be relocated..
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I'm really confused now....... if they didn't move the wires how did it run? A couple of replies up you said they moved the wires
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Poor explanation. IF the wires were moved 1 post. They rotated the distributor to achieve the same effect. They couldnt rotate it any further because the wires weren't long enough. The solution is to put the distributor housing back in the proper position, lift it out and reposition the shaft 1 or 2 teeth as required. That should put everything in or close to factory position.
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Been there, done that........ check the videos I sent you
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October 4 Report:
I managed to "tune" it so that it works better on the original PCM. The
curious thing is, when the jumper is in, tuning goes perfectly "by the
book". But when the jumper is out, the timing is way off, and it can
only be tuned "by ear". I still don't know why that is.
I went on a longer test drive, and the SES light came on during the
drive. My scanner said "24 -- cannot determine vehicle speed". I cleared
it, but I figure it will come back on the next drive. Maybe Raydar knows
how to hook up the VSS.
I think there's a slight miss -- not sure. I got some Sea Foam and put
some (not all) in the tank. I'll see if it makes a difference on the
next drive. That will be tomorrow, because work and school traffic is
out now.
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VSS may not be plugged in...... if it's not, oops
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Scott. If you are still thinking of selling… I may now be interested. 😂
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October 4 Report:
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I went on a longer test drive, and the SES light came on during the
drive. My scanner said "24 -- cannot determine vehicle speed". I cleared
it, but I figure it will come back on the next drive. Maybe Raydar knows
how to hook up the VSS.
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Scott and I unplugged the VSS to check the wiring. Hopefully, it was plugged back in, at some point.
The reason for the code is that the ECM is looking for a later (magnetic?) VSS at ~24000 pulses per mile. The Fiero Getrag supplies a couple thousand pulses per mile, but the signal, if it can be seen at all, is NOT what the Caddy ECM wants to see. The type of VSS, the waveform, and the number of pulses (peaks?) per mile are way off.
I was hoping that there was something there that the ECM could see/use, but it would appear that that's not the case.
(I think that if the ECM sees anything at all, it will be enough to stop the VSS code from setting.)
I can turn off the VSS code in the chip, but that doesn't mean that it will run exactly like it's supposed to. (Actually, I thought I *did* turn it off. But I'm not sure, now.)
The biggest issue will be stalling when coming to a stop, as soon as the clutch is pushed in. I can explain why, but I'll spare you, unless you want to hear.
Edit - Dakota digital makes an adapter that allows later trannies to work with earlier ECM, but I'm not sure if there is a "reverse" solution.
When Ed did these swaps, he removed the bulb from the Check Engine light. "Out of sight, out of mind." |
2nd edit - I think this is the device that other people have been using.
https://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=1192/category_id=287/mode=prod/prd1192.htm
No guarantees, however.
Ignoring the ignition issues, does the car run okay? Does it stall when coming to a stop? If not, the Code 24 may be able to be ignored (and/or turned off, with whichever tune will run the engine better.)
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I think they went back to the original pcm if I read correctly.
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I think they went back to the original pcm if I read correctly.
Yeah. I saw that.
If it doesn't stall when coming to a stop, Code 24 can be turned off, and everything else can be left alone.
Don't know why the original chip would run better. Nothing major was changed. A bunch of codes and VSS were turned off, and the idle speed was increased. That's about it.
But I can do whatever is needed/requested, regarding the chip.
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It did the pull up to a stop sign and die thing with me
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The VSS in the 4T60 on my 3800 works just like the crank position sensor on my 88 duke. It is a magnet inside a coil of wire, and it is positioned close to a metal wheel with slots in it. As the slots pass by the magnet, they disturb the field and generate electric pulses.
Assuming that the 4.9 originally had a 4T60, it's PCM will want to see the same kind of VSS pulses, and I'm sure they are different from what a Fiero-type VSS produces.
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It did the pull up to a stop sign and die thing with me
The only other option (other than the rather sketchy Dakota Digital adapter) is to pop the plug out of the throttle body, and set a "minimum" idle speed. It kind of over-rides the ECM and ISC.
Here's the long story, because I don't have anything better to do... :D
What happens is that, if you're coasting with your foot off the gas, in gear, the ECM is trying to slow down the engine to idle speed. (Remember... it sees NO meaningful speed input.)
It tells the ISC to reduce engine speed. Of course, since it's a manual, and you're coasting in gear, the engine does not slow down. The ECM finally closes the throttle completely, trying to get the engine to idle down.
When you finally push in the clutch, the engine stalls because the throttle is completely closed, at the behest of the ECM/ISC. Hence my comment about setting a "minimum" throttle opening with the throttle body screw.
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Assuming that the 4.9 originally had a 4T60, it's PCM will want to see the same kind of VSS pulses, and I'm sure they are different from what a Fiero-type VSS produces.
Exactly right. Different in wave shape and frequency.
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So, to prevent the stalling, would jazzing the throttle a little at the time of disengaging the clutch do the trick?
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It did the pull up to a stop sign and die thing with me
The only other option is to pop the plug out of the throttle body, and set a "minimum" idle speed. It kind of over-rides the ECM and ISC.
The plug has been removed (wasn't me, someone else got to it first). It's a bitch to adjust the throttle stop.
What I don't understand is why it drove for years without this issue...... now it comes up?
And this car has a bulb in the socket as I have seen the "Check Wallet" light
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So, to prevent the stalling, would jazzing the throttle a little at the time of disengaging the clutch do the trick?
Probably. But maybe not necessary. Look back at my edited comment. A "minimum" idle speed can be set.
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The plug has been removed (wasn't me, someone else got to it first). It's a bitch to adjust the throttle stop.
What I don't understand is why it drove for years without this issue...... now it comes up?
And this car has a bulb in the socket as I have seen the "Check Wallet" light
Ed, and company, probably tried to set the minimum idle speed/throttle opening. I would have.
The VSS thing is a well known issue. The stuff I quoted was posted elsewhere, like ten years ago.
Posted by people who were swapping V8s into S10s. But it's the same deal.
Otherwise, I can't explain anything that happened before you got the car. Take everything you were told with a grain of salt.
"Ran great, right up until it didn't." Right.
Anything else? Nothing would surprise me.
My Check Wallet light was NOT installed. Maybe they learned, by then.
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Steve, Troubleshooter wants to know if the rotor on the 4.9 can be installed 180 out. It mounts with 2 screws, not like the Fiero that has a keyed slot on the shaft.
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Steve, Troubleshooter wants to know if the rotor on the 4.9 can be installed 180 out. It mounts with 2 screws, not like the Fiero that has a keyed slot on the shaft.
I don't know. He should try it. I suspect not.
I think it has a "tit" on the end of the plate, where the rotor mounts, that fits a notch on the rotor. I don't think it will work.
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Nope. It’s keyed on the sides. Well there is a tab. Or I’m remembering incorrectly. If it’s like most GM v8 distributors.
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Scott says it's keyed, too.
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I had a chance to drive the car today. The idle changes from rough to smooth, depending upon what the oil pressure gauge is doing. When it pegs, it runs very roughly. When it drops down to a proper oil pressure, it runs smoothly. This is an intermittent thing of about every 10 seconds. I don't know which is the one creating the effect. The temp gauge will quickly move to the red, but it doesn't seem to be overheating.
Under acceleration, it seems as if the timing is off. Initially, it will lurch with good power, then it begins what I think sounds like a misfire. Whether that's caused by too much or too little advance will have to be determined by Troubleshooter. My damaged hearing range doesn't easily detect spark knock.
So, they are going to look at the old distributor to see if there's any alignment indicators and also look into the Field Service Manual engine rebuild section for information on resetting the distributor after a teardown.
Just found out the old distributor was tossed and isn't available any more. Different approach.
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I had a chance to drive the car today. The idle changes from rough to smooth, depending upon what the oil pressure gauge is doing. When it pegs, it runs very roughly. When it drops down to a proper oil pressure, it runs smoothly. This is an intermittent thing of about every 10 seconds. I don't know which is the one creating the effect. The temp gauge will quickly move to the red, but it doesn't seem to be overheating.
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All that other stuff notwithstanding, this really sounds like a ground problem. The offscale gauges, especially. But if it also makes the car run poorly, it's not surprising.
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That may be. My 87 oil pressure is unplugged because it blows instrument panel fuses when plugged in. When it's unplugged or removed from the sending tube, plugged in and the ignition on, it loses its ground and pegs. My thoughts are that it may have to do with the relays. Scott said there was a pair of relays in parallel that I believe fed the fuel pump.
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No, the fuel pump and AC relays were moved from behind the air filter. There is an extra relay that is wired in to provide power for those 2 relays. To find why it's wired like that you will have to talk to the rocket surgeon in Huntsville cuz I have no idear.
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No, the fuel pump and AC relays were moved from behind the air filter. There is an extra relay that is wired in to provide power for those 2 relays. To find why it's wired like that you will have to talk to the rocket surgeon in Huntsville cuz I have no idea.
Seems like I remember that. Still can't explain why he did it that way, however. (From the department of redundancy department?)
BUT... normally the fuel pump is wired hot at the fuse box. A bad idea IMHO. The "upstream" relay may have been a way to "fix" that. Or not.
But that's not really applicable to the task at hand. Just a random thought...
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It might be a ground issue, Roger and I were thinking that. Used my jumper cables to go from the engine straight to the battery didn't change anything.
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Update October 17.
Work has ceased on finding the problem with Scott's 4.9. A little condensed review.
When he bought the car, it was randomly missing on 4 cylinders. No particular thing could be identified as the cause. No bumps in the road, no acceleration or deceleration, no turns. It would just do it, then it would begin running on all 8 again. For a while. Sometimes a short while, sometimes a long while.
Scott, Roger, Raydar, TopNotch, and maybe some others I'm not aware of delved into the car. Every sensor on the engine was replaced to no avail. The distributor was replaced to no avail. One day while still troubleshooting, just by sheer accident, it was found that a fuse block that held among others, two fuses for the fuel injectors had a faulty set of contacts on one of the injector fuses. Move it one way and it would run on all 8. Move it the other way and it would only run on 4.
That problem was resolved by replacing and repinning a new fuse block. But with that problem being solved, another had reared its ugly head. It ran horribly. With lots of input from club members and Pennocks members, just about every theory was explored. ECM. PROM. Grounds. Timing. Timing. Timing again.
The engine would run smoothly with the ALDL jumper in place but would either die or run very roughly as soon as it was removed. So, diagnostics was frequently interrupted to remove the battery, go underneath and replace the serpentine belt when the engine would buck. It was finally determined that the cause of the belt jumping was due to a poorly made idler/tensioner bracket. Several configurations were looked at and considered until finally one was fabricated and that issue was solved.
It was scanned and rescanned. It was analyzed with oscilloscopes. Nothing showed up. Again, timing was looked at. Troubleshooter noted something that he felt was a little odd about the distributor and the cam sensor inside the distributor because when the trigger tab on the bottom of the rotor button plate passed through the sensor, the rotor button wasn't pointing at the #1 wire terminal. He wanted to dissect the old distributor to see just how it worked on this particular engine, but that distributor had been discarded long ago when the new one was installed.
Assuming the spark was breaking down, the ignition coil was replaced with a new one. No change. The cam sensor was replaced with a used one that was in the trunk of the car. No change. Both the coil and cam sensor that was removed were put back into the new distributor.
Yesterday, after attending a local car show, I went to Pull A Part and yanked a distributor from a 93 Deville and delivered it to Troubleshooter so he could analyze it. So, instead of tearing it apart, he swapped it out, pulling the new distributor and putting in the one from the parts yard. Set it according to the factory service manual and fired it up. It ran smoothly with the jumper. It ran smoothly without the jumper.
It could possibly pull a wheelie on the road if the clutch didn't slip. But we kept to the speed limit as we delivered it back to Scott this afternoon. Having replaced the coil and the cam sensor without result, the only thing in the distributor left is the pickup coil and the ICM. One of those was defective right out of the box.
Final diagnosis: Defective Distributor Components.
Thanks to all who contributed to the effort to prevent Scott from utilizing his 45 and propane torch. The tensioner bracket was fabricated by Headhunter1ID, Gabe Anderson.
I would also like to introduce and give a HUGE THANKS to Troubleshooter, better known to all of us as Georgia Fiero's TopNotch, aka Pat Swayne.
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Good. I'm happy that Scott didn't have to provide any additional 9mm ventilation.
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When I got the pull-a-part distributor from Fierofool, I took the cap off, and it looked very clean inside, and all the components looked like top quality stuff. So I cleaned the outside, replaced the O-ring (the old one was flattened and brittle), and put it in the car, with Scott's new cap on it.
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What a fantastic effort by all involved and beautifully summarised! Well done chaps.
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Impressive. Great summary.
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Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.
Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.
Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.
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Great news and well done all!
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Update October 17.
Work has ceased on finding the problem with Scott's 4.9. A little condensed review.
When he bought the car, it was randomly missing on 4 cylinders. No particular thing could be identified as the cause. No bumps in the road, no acceleration or deceleration, no turns. It would just do it, then it would begin running on all 8 again. For a while. Sometimes a short while, sometimes a long while.
Scott, Roger, Raydar, TopNotch, and maybe some others I'm not aware of delved into the car. Every sensor on the engine was replaced to no avail. The distributor was replaced to no avail. One day while still troubleshooting, just by sheer accident, it was found that a fuse block that held among others, two fuses for the fuel injectors had a faulty set of contacts on one of the injector fuses. Move it one way and it would run on all 8. Move it the other way and it would only run on 4.
That problem was resolved by replacing and repinning a new fuse block. But with that problem being solved, another had reared its ugly head. It ran horribly. With lots of input from club members and Pennocks members, just about every theory was explored. ECM. PROM. Grounds. Timing. Timing. Timing again.
The engine would run smoothly with the ALDL jumper in place but would either die or run very roughly as soon as it was removed. So, diagnostics was frequently interrupted to remove the battery, go underneath and replace the serpentine belt when the engine would buck. It was finally determined that the cause of the belt jumping was due to a poorly made idler/tensioner bracket. Several configurations were looked at and considered until finally one was fabricated and that issue was solved.
It was scanned and rescanned. It was analyzed with oscilloscopes. Nothing showed up. Again, timing was looked at. Troubleshooter noted something that he felt was a little odd about the distributor and the cam sensor inside the distributor because when the trigger tab on the bottom of the rotor button plate passed through the sensor, the rotor button wasn't pointing at the #1 wire terminal. He wanted to dissect the old distributor to see just how it worked on this particular engine, but that distributor had been discarded long ago when the new one was installed.
Assuming the spark was breaking down, the ignition coil was replaced with a new one. No change. The cam sensor was replaced with a used one that was in the trunk of the car. No change. Both the coil and cam sensor that was removed were put back into the new distributor.
Yesterday, after attending a local car show, I went to Pull A Part and yanked a distributor from a 93 Deville and delivered it to Troubleshooter so he could analyze it. So, instead of tearing it apart, he swapped it out, pulling the new distributor and putting in the one from the parts yard. Set it according to the factory service manual and fired it up. It ran smoothly with the jumper. It ran smoothly without the jumper.
It could possibly pull a wheelie on the road if the clutch didn't slip. But we kept to the speed limit as we delivered it back to Scott this afternoon. Having replaced the coil and the cam sensor without result, the only thing in the distributor left is the pickup coil and the ICM. One of those was defective right out of the box.
Final diagnosis: Defective Distributor Components.
Thanks to all who contributed to the effort to prevent Scott from utilizing his 45 and propane torch. The tensioner bracket was fabricated by Headhunter1ID, Gabe Anderson.
I would also like to introduce and give a HUGE THANKS to Troubleshooter, better known to all of us as Georgia Fiero's TopNotch, aka Pat Swayne.
WOW! Inspirational :)
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Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.
Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.
Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.
TEAMWORK!!
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Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.
Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.
Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.
You are very welcome. It’s the least we can do for someone who shares so much with others.
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Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.
Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.
Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.
I'm happy that it's sorted. I knew it could be fixed. I knew it would be fixed.
I'm just happy that it happened before you gave up on it completely.
Edit - I'm happy that it happened before anyone let you give up on it completely.
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Now when do I get to go for a ride?
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There is something I forgot to mention about TopNotch's contribution to putting the 4.9 Formula back on the road. The agreement we had is that he would b paid for his labor and any parts he needed to purchase. He refused any payment for his labor, and he worked on the car fairly constantly for the whole time he had it. He donated his time to the cause.
Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket. I think Jimmy might have been involved in some way, too.
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Have yall figured up my bill yet?
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When I took the car I told you it was at no charge to you. Thanks for all you do.
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They did but the duck flew away
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Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket.
Gabe made the bracket.
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Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket.
Gabe made the bracket.
Correct. I only designed it. Drilled it. Aligned it. And installed it.
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I knew Gabe welded it. I don't know why I put Ralph.
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😂 it’s ok. Just giving you a hard time. 😂
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At my age, time is the only thing that is.
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Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket.
Gabe made the bracket.
Correct. I only designed it. Drilled it. Aligned it. And installed it.
And the belt has never come off since, so it must be a good design.
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Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket.
Gabe made the bracket.
Correct. I only designed it. Drilled it. Aligned it. And installed it.
And the belt has never come off since, so it must be a good design.
I did steal and modify it. Got to give some credit to google and the wonderful individual who posted their design online.
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Should've shot it, then crushed it.
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Should've shot it, then crushed it.
You don't know how close I was
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At my age, time is the only thing that is.
Lol!! Can we swap my youth and your skills Sir?