Post by: Fierofool on May 08, 2015, 08:12:02 pm
http://fiero34swap.eleventenths.org/
Post by: Fierofool on May 08, 2015, 10:15:53 pm
The oil pan gasket set is if you're using an 87 or 88 timing cover and 3.4 oil pan. Otherwise order OS 30512 C which is the listing for the 85 engine. The reason I recommend asking for the 85 pan gasket set is because some of the listings are incorrect due to 86 being a crossover year on some parts.
These are all FelPro gasket sets.
TCS 45828 Timing Cover Set Includes Water Pump Gasket.
MS 93045 Exhaust Manifold Gasket Set.
VS 50077 R Valve Cover Set--Cork Valve Cover Gaskets Also Come In The Intake Manifold Set, But Aren't Used On The Fiero.
MS 93020 Intake Manifold Set, Includes Lower, Intermediate, and Upper Gaskets.
OS 34501 R Oil Pan Set
BS 40626 Rear Main Bearing Seal. Always replace this seal when you have the opportunity.
Get a 91 Beretta GT 3.1 V6 at Advance Auto Parts if you don't have an 88 flywheel. The 88 Fiero and Beretta flywheels are identical.
Carquest Part # 50-6500 Casting # 14018712
LUK Part # I1000847944LUK
Sachs Part # I1000202427SAC
There is no need to purchase head gaskets unless you plan to remove the heads from the 3.4 engine. There's no real need to remove them unless you have them rebuilt.
So that you don't have to readjust the valves, before removing the lower intake on the engine, acquire a pushrod removal tool made by Lisle Tools. Part # 48500
http://www.lislecorp.com/di...roducts/?product=298
If the 3.4 heads are left on the engine, you will need to remove the pipe plug in the rear of the passenger side head so that the Fiero temperature gauge sending unit can be installed. Remove the sender from the left front of the 3.4 head and use a good pipe compound when installing a pipe plug in it's place. You don't want it to leak after the engine's installed.
I also recommend installing a set of rebuilt injectors. BMW Fuel Injector (M3) - The four pintle design atomizes fuel much more efficiently with a much better spray pattern. Use 0280150415 for flow reference. These are flow rated at 17 lb/hr at 43.5 psi stock Fiero fuel pressure. Or, you can have your stock Fiero injectors recalibrated for 17 # per hour, which is what's required for the 3.4
This information edited in on June 22, 2018
This is what I found regarding Bosch Fuel Injectors # 0280150415. This comes from Injector Planet's website.
This is a modified pintle injector with a 4-hole nozzle. There is a pintle behind each nozzle hole. This creates a much better spray pattern for better atomization.
Bosch EV1 Fuel Injector
Jetronic port / 4 hole nozzle
Flow rates @ 43.5 psi / 3 bar
16.76 lb per hour (My Note: 17# rated injectors flow at approximately 16.666 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi. See calculator chart below)
126.5 G per min. (N-Heptane)
176.1 cc per min
15.90 Ohm resistance
Regarding flow rates listed above, I've consulted 4 or 5 various charts for Bosch injectors and the EV1 injectors are rated by the various charts at anywhere from 14.1 lb/hr to 22 lb/hr. I strongly suggest you have them flow-tested if you purchase them.
Bosch Part # 0280150415
BMW part # 13641730060
EDIT: Due to the problems some are having with the 0280150415 EV1 injectors, I am suggesting that you consider the 0280150941 Bosch injectors, instead. They have worked well for me for 50,000 miles, but the moment I upgraded to the EV1 injectors, I experienced all kinds of problems. About 3 of 10 have had problems with the EV1 injectors that couldn't be resolved. Any future reference in this article suggesting using the 0280150415 EV1 injectors is hereby retracted.
I had time to do a little searching today and this is what I found for top feed Bosch injectors.
0280150415 injectors 16# = 16.76#/hr @ 3 bar (43.5 psi) compares on InjectorPlanet and InjectorRx websites.
0280150715 injectors 15# = 15.4#/hr @ 3 bar
0280150778 injectors 17# = 18.2#/hr @ 3 bar
The 0280150941 (Ford FOSE-B5A) injectors I switched back to are rated 14#/hr at 3 bar according to the InjectorRx chart and InjectorPlanet chart. They were recommended and provided by Fuel Injector Connection. That actual flow is 14.1#/hr
CHART FROM MOTOR MAN FUEL INJECTOR SUPPLY
Fuel Injector Size Calculator
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 160
Number of Injectors 6
B.S.F.C. *
Max Duty Cycle in % 80
Required Injector Static Flow Rate @ 43.5 psi lb/hr 16.666
cc/min
I've tried the Mustang 302 injectors and the stock injectors that came in the 3.4 and had problems with both. Others might recommend Accel or other brands. I can't say they're good or bad since I have no experience with those.
You can use your original harmonic balancer but if you use the 3.4 balancers, you will need to have a machine shop cut new timing marks to match the position of the 2.8 balancer marks. If you use the 2.8 balancers to locate the mark on the new balancer, you must be certain that the 2.8 outer ring hasn't slipped. The timing mark is approximately 7 degrees counterclockwise of the keyway.
87 and 88 Fiero pans and timing covers can be used, but if your engine is either, use the 3.4 pan to provide clearance for the oil pump. All Fiero V6 pans will need to have the baffle notched for clearance and the 85 or 86 timing cover will need to be used with the 85 or 86 pans. If any modification is needed on the 3.4 pan, it's only a slight indentation down the front corner to clear the front motor mount. If done with a brass drift and hammer, you are unlikely to cause any breaks or cracks.
Post by: f85gtron on August 05, 2016, 10:58:21 am
Find a 45° brass fitting female to male and install so that the sender runs parallel to the block, aimed towards the front of the block.
Upgrading to the 88 style sender is a must anyways, so why not protect your investment and move the sender to a spot where it won't get ruined by weather?
Post by: Raydar on August 05, 2016, 05:05:11 pm
...
NEW Bosch "green tip" injector. The green tip indicates a 17 lb injector needed for the 3.4. You can get them from Fuel Injector Connection at http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/ These work well with the stock Fiero ECM.
...
They may call them "17#" injectors, but it must be at some higher fuel pressure than the stock Fiero setup. (I'd be curious to know what fuel pressure the BMWs, that came with these injectors, run.)
I have scanned the fueling of two different 3.4 cars, using these injectors. They both ran lean. The BLM readings were nearly identical to the stock 2.8 15# injectors, as installed in the 3.4.
In both instances the ECM was adding as much fuel as it could, within the limits of the program.
I "band-aided" one of these cars by opening up the window to allow the BLM to go higher, adding more fuel. (I burned a chip for the other car, but the owner said that it "didn't work" when he installed it. I offered to do another one for him but he wasn't interested.)
Both owners described the "excellent fuel mileage" that they were seeing with these injectors and a stock tune. Upper 20s to low 30s.
RIGHT! Because their engines were not getting enough fuel.
This may not be a big deal, right now, but at some point I wouldn't be surprised if some pistons or exhaust valves got damaged, over the long term. Or maybe not. Who knows?
At the expense of a bit of fuel economy, there may even be a few horsepower locked in there, if they ran a little richer.
Post by: Fierofool on August 05, 2016, 11:45:52 pm
The 17# BMW injectors are rated at 43.5 psi, and actually flow 16.666 lb/hr. All the injector calculator programs I've seen use a base rate of 43.5 psi, but different pressures can be entered for a specific application.
For a while, now, my mpg is running in the low 20's and I have a slight rich burn smell. I can actually get better mpg if I don't go into 5th gear. Mountain driving in 3rd and 4th seems to be ideal, with mpg moving on to the upper 20's. That's normal 3rd and 4th, not RFTH 3rd and 4th.
Running stock chips in a 3.4, it might be worthwhile to have the Fiero's 15# injectors adjusted to flow the higher rate. Admittedly, my BMW injectors aren't ideal, but I think they are better suited than the Rochester 17# or the stock 15#. The bold, underlined statement applies to my original injectors that were a little lean. The newly recommended injectors are inline with the requirements of the engine. This info has been updated as of April 19, 2020
I looked in the Fiero parts list, and there is no part number for that fitting. It just describes it as a fitting with NS as a part number. Meaning it's Not Separate. It comes with the engine or the sending tube on AC equipped cars. There was someone on PFF that had identified the needed fitting by name and thread, if you want to use the sending tube. It's been a couple of years ago, so it'd be in the Archives by now. Dennis LaGrua or OleJoeDad might be able to help out since they do a lot of swaps.
Post by: Raydar on August 06, 2016, 10:52:10 am
I've been having problems finding, then installing the oil sender tube adaptor fitting.
Check this link. Unless there is something different going on...
http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=193
Post by: f85gtron on August 06, 2016, 01:42:06 pm
Post by: Raydar on August 07, 2016, 06:07:07 pm
It's been a while, but the sender looks like it's right where the compressor wants to be.
Post by: f85gtron on August 07, 2016, 07:15:36 pm
Post by: Raydar on August 15, 2016, 06:42:17 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 18, 2017, 07:19:11 pm
Find a 45° brass fitting female to male and install so that the sender runs parallel to the block, aimed towards the front of the block.
You don't happen to remember what this fitting was, do you?
Post by: Fierofool on September 18, 2017, 08:52:08 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on September 18, 2017, 08:55:00 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 18, 2017, 08:59:51 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 18, 2017, 09:06:22 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 18, 2017, 09:18:42 pm
Post by: Fierofool on September 18, 2017, 10:09:46 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 27, 2017, 05:46:54 pm
Post by: Fierofool on December 02, 2017, 08:16:51 pm
Post by: Raydar on December 02, 2017, 10:13:03 pm
....These are flow rated at 17 lb/hr at 43.5 psi stock Fiero fuel pressure.
...
Where did you hear about these? (If you don't mind me asking.) Sounds like exactly what we need!
If anyone buys them for their 3.4, I'd really like to scan the engine during a short test drive.
Post by: Fierofool on December 02, 2017, 10:37:52 pm
I sent him to this thread and he reported back that he couldn't find the injectors I had listed. I searched extensively on FIC with the info tags I had posted and couldn't find anything in a 17# pintle injector, by any manufacturer. I went to Ebay and did some searching under the same search tags and found them.
They were pricey at $60 each, new with a 10 year warranty. The individual I'm helping found them at a refurbisher about 20 minutes from his home. Seems like they don't have a walk-in sales counter, though because he said he had to order them. I don't know what the price is, but I'll find out both the name of the vendor as well as check with FIC to see what they offer for folks on the East Coast.
WHEN/IF I ever pop the top off to install my stainless vacuum lines or do the 7730 conversion, I think I will give them a try, finances allowing. Don't hold off waiting for my evaluation, though.
Post by: Fierofool on June 22, 2018, 05:51:49 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 22, 2018, 06:59:47 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 22, 2018, 04:22:14 pm
This is what I found regarding Bosch Fuel Injectors # 0280150415. This comes from Injector Planet's website. They are specified for the BMW M3. They have a green body and pintle cap.
This is a modified pintle injector with a 4-hole nozzle. There is a pintle behind each nozzle hole. This creates a much better spray pattern for better atomization.
Bosch EV1 Fuel Injector
Jetronic port / 4 hole nozzle
Flow rates @ 43.5 psi / 3 bar
16.76 lb per hour (My Note: 17# rated injectors flow at approximately 16.666 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi. See calculator chart below)
126.5 G per min. (N-Heptane)
176.1 cc per min
15.90 Ohm resistance
Bosch Part # 0280150415
BMW part # 13641730060
CHART FROM MOTOR MAN FUEL INJECTOR SUPPLY
Fuel Injector Size Calculator
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 160
Number of Injectors 6
B.S.F.C. *
Max Duty Cycle in % 80
Required Injector Static Flow Rate @ 43.5 psi lb/hr 16.666
cc/min
Advertised flow rates can vary due to a number of variables. Note that Injector Planet specifies N-Heptane as the fluid used. There are about 3 others that may be used. Obviously, some of the fluids have similar properties as gasoline. Ohm rating is also a factor. These are within acceptable range of our stock injectors, so the ECM shouldn't have any problem with the pulse width. Duty cycle shouldn't be pushed past the 80% range as flow rate falls off. I don't know how duty cycle is adjusted.
Post by: Raydar on June 23, 2018, 11:24:25 am
The specs really sound better than I remember. I'd like to get hold of a car that has them installed, to scan.
The actual duty cycle is determined by the ECM. The manufacturer will specify 80% (or whatever % they deem appropriate) as a maximum. If there is not enough flow, the ECM can command a higher duty cycle, but if it gets too long, it can cause the injector output to be unstable, and may alter the spray pattern, too. In other words, after that number, the injector flow characteristics would become unpredictable.
I've seen a video of an injector test, where they were driven into an excessive duty cycle. It was pretty surprising.
I'll see if I can find it. (It may even be on the FIC page.)
Post by: Fierofool on June 23, 2018, 01:04:37 pm
There was another person on PFF that I had been helping more recently and I offered to buy the injectors from him if they didn't solve his problem. Never heard back, so I hope they were the solution. Same problems. Spark Knock. Maxed BLM. I don't remember what injectors he'd installed at that time, but he started out with gully-washing Rochesters.
Post by: Raydar on June 23, 2018, 04:52:38 pm
I'm anxious to get my hands on a car with them.
Doesn't Mike's AeroDon car have the same injectors as yours?
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 23, 2018, 06:38:55 pm
I had both the Bosch style and the Rochester style. They need to be the same, not one bank of each.
Post by: Fierofool on June 23, 2018, 07:47:03 pm
Post by: Raydar on June 24, 2018, 12:56:06 am
At higher RPMs, the disk type injectors are just fine, but the Fiero ECM can't control them reliably at low RPM.
Ron S posted a fairly detailed explanation, a while back, of what needed to be done to the programming, in order to make them work with a Fiero ECM, but it was (if I remember correctly) a set of parameters that I've never messed with. Seemed fairly complex.
Also... it's a somewhat popular misconception that 88s all came with disk type injectors. I have heard that, as well.
That may have been true for a handful of cars, but not most. Every 88 that I've ever been into had the same injectors as the earlier cars. Pintle type.
To further add to the confusion, some of the 88 fuel injector harnesses had square plugs, although most of them had the same flat plug as the earlier cars. I wondered if there might be a correlation between the square-plug harness and the disk type injectors, but there was none to be found. They both appear to be random occurrences. (There was even speculation that GM ran out of pintle type injectors, late in production, and just threw in whatever was handy. THAT wouldn't surprise me a bit. Of course there was probably a good chance that they wouldn't idle correctly. But by then it was a customer/dealer problem.)
Post by: GTXVette on June 24, 2018, 08:08:47 am
Post by: Raydar on June 24, 2018, 09:16:26 am
Too much fuel at idle would tend to flood the engine, and make the idle speed hunt.
Post by: Fierofool on June 24, 2018, 09:19:56 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on June 24, 2018, 09:29:37 am
Post by: Fierofool on June 24, 2018, 02:00:47 pm
With a turbo, is the wastegate operating properly? As I think I understand, doesn't the wastegate dumps excessive air pressure from going into the engine? Maybe based upon input from the throttle position sensor?
Post by: GTXVette on June 24, 2018, 02:50:45 pm
Post by: Raydar on June 24, 2018, 06:42:29 pm
30# is way over for even a 3.4, let alone a 3100.
It is, if it's not boosted. Boost (more air) requires more fuel to accommodate.
Larger injectors are required, but must be accounted for in the tune, to accommodate idling, and other situations that occur when boost is not present.
This is a whole different situation - and set of parameters - than the "rich/hunting idle with the 17# disk type injectors" situation.
This is why I don't normally mess with boosted engines. It's a whole 'nother learning curve. Fan's is going to be an... experience. :-/
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 04, 2020, 12:12:06 am
Post by: Fierofool on January 04, 2020, 08:35:45 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on January 04, 2020, 08:38:00 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 14, 2020, 09:14:31 am
I "band-aided" one of these cars by opening up the window to allow the BLM to go higher, adding more fuel. (I burned a chip for the other car, but the owner said that it "didn't work" when he installed it. I offered to do another one for him but he wasn't interested.)
Both owners described the "excellent fuel mileage" that they were seeing with these injectors and a stock tune. Upper 20s to low 30s.
RIGHT! Because their engines were not getting enough fuel.
This may not be a big deal, right now, but at some point I wouldn't be surprised if some pistons or exhaust valves got damaged, over the long term. Or maybe not. Who knows?
At the expense of a bit of fuel economy, there may even be a few horsepower locked in there, if they ran a little richer.
I've sent several logs to Ryan, and he doesn't seem to see any lean condition. With the latest chip, my MPG have dropped a bit, but I am a bit worried about running lean. Judging by my exhaust, I'm running rich. For sure, it's peppy. Any other way to tell if it's running lean?
Post by: TopNotch on March 14, 2020, 10:43:18 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on March 14, 2020, 10:47:06 am