F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero

[Fierofool]

They were only a few pennies each.  I dont remember.  Priority mail $7.15.  You will probably need Rodney's fitting that screws into the block.  In the 3.4 Swap section.  Maybe the little bracket, too, depending upon your setup.

[Fierofool]

Correction.....It's a street elbow, not a field elbow.

[GTRS Fiero]

I forgot to post here.  Thanks for sending the adapter.

[Fierofool]

I have recently updated the information in my second post in this thread, relative to the recommended fuel injectors for the 3.4 install.  Several persons have had problems with the Bosch numbers I provided and with the BMW vehicle series I provided.  I've found new information and have edited my post.  The edited text is in bold copy in that second posting. 

[Raydar]

....These are flow rated at 17 lb/hr at 43.5 psi stock Fiero fuel pressure. 
...

Where did you hear about these? (If you don't mind me asking.) Sounds like exactly what we need!

If anyone buys them for their 3.4, I'd really like to scan the engine during a short test drive.

[Fierofool]

I've been working with a guy on Pennocks to try to resolve some issues with his 3.4.  He's installed new Rochesters and the fuel stench was so bad that it was burning his eyes and nose and the car sounded like it was running on just 3 cylinders because it was loading up so badly. 

I sent him to this thread and he reported back that he couldn't find the injectors I had listed.  I searched extensively on FIC with the info tags I had posted and couldn't find anything in a 17# pintle injector, by any manufacturer.  I went to Ebay and did some searching under the same search tags and found them.

They were pricey at $60 each, new with a 10 year warranty.  The individual I'm helping found them at a refurbisher about 20 minutes from his home.  Seems like they don't have a walk-in sales counter, though because he said he had to order them.  I don't know what the price is, but I'll find out both the name of the vendor as well as check with FIC to see what they offer for folks on the East Coast. 

WHEN/IF I ever pop the top off to install my stainless vacuum lines or do the 7730 conversion, I think I will give them a try, finances allowing.  Don't hold off waiting for my evaluation, though.

[Fierofool]

Updated fuel injector information edited in second post on page 1.

[GTRS Fiero]

The Accel injectors apparently are the Mustang injectors.  They may have worked, had they matched.  They were a mix of Bosch and Rochester.  They must match, and the ECU prefers one type over the other.

[Fierofool]

This is what I found regarding Bosch Fuel Injectors # 0280150415. This comes from Injector Planet's website.  They are specified for the BMW M3.  They have a green body and pintle cap. 

This is a modified pintle injector with a 4-hole nozzle. There is a pintle behind each nozzle hole. This creates a much better spray pattern for better atomization.

Bosch EV1 Fuel Injector
Jetronic port / 4 hole nozzle

Flow rates @ 43.5 psi / 3 bar
16.76 lb per hour (My Note: 17# rated injectors flow at approximately 16.666 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi. See calculator chart below)
126.5 G per min. (N-Heptane)
176.1 cc per min

15.90 Ohm resistance

Bosch Part # 0280150415
BMW part # 13641730060

CHART FROM MOTOR MAN FUEL INJECTOR SUPPLY

Fuel Injector Size Calculator
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 160
Number of Injectors 6
B.S.F.C. *

Max Duty Cycle in % 80


Required Injector Static Flow Rate @ 43.5 psi lb/hr 16.666

cc/min

Advertised flow rates can vary due to a number of variables.  Note that Injector Planet specifies N-Heptane as the fluid used.  There are about 3 others that may be used.  Obviously, some of the fluids have similar properties as gasoline.  Ohm rating is also a factor.  These are within acceptable range of our stock injectors, so the ECM shouldn't have any problem with the pulse width.  Duty cycle shouldn't be pushed past the 80% range as flow rate falls off.  I don't know how duty cycle is adjusted. 

[Raydar]

Are these different injectors from the ones in your and the AeroDon car?
The specs really sound better than I remember. I'd like to get hold of a car that has them installed, to scan.

The actual duty cycle is determined by the ECM. The manufacturer will specify 80% (or whatever % they deem appropriate) as a maximum. If there is not enough flow, the ECM can command a higher duty cycle, but if it gets too long, it can cause the injector output to be unstable, and may alter the spray pattern, too. In other words, after that number, the injector flow characteristics would become unpredictable.
I've seen a video of an injector test, where they were driven into an excessive duty cycle. It was pretty surprising.
I'll see if I can find it. (It may even be on the FIC page.)

[Fierofool]

Steve, they are different.  FIC told me that the ones I have were the correct injectors for my application.  Years later when talking to John about someone else's issue's, (lesada comes to mind) he told me that the injectors should be green.  Mine are a light gray or cream color.  Can't confirm the color because Pat has the car at the moment.  I'm waiting to see if Ucycle tries them or if he goes with the Camaro injectors. 

There was another person on PFF that I had been helping more recently and I offered to buy the injectors from him if they didn't solve his problem.  Never heard back, so I hope they were the solution.  Same problems.  Spark Knock.  Maxed BLM.  I don't remember what injectors he'd installed at that time, but he started out with gully-washing Rochesters. 

[Raydar]

Okay. Good deal. I hope they work out.
I'm anxious to get my hands on a car with them.

Doesn't Mike's AeroDon car have the same injectors as yours?

[GTRS Fiero]

Why can't you use the injectors that came stock on the 3.4?

I had both the Bosch style and the Rochester style.  They need to be the same, not one bank of each.

[Fierofool]

The injectors are multec disk injectors.  The ECM programming is apparently for pintle injectors.  Apprently, aside from the injection method, there's some difference in their electronics.  The early ECM's seem to have more problem operating the multec than the 88 ECM.  It could be the ohm rating of the multec, or some other factor.  Multecs seem to run excessively rich with the Fiero ECM.  You could problably run them if you used the 3.4 ECM, but that apparently isn't a real option because you never hear of anyone doing it.  They either stay with the Fiero ECM or go to a 7730, but even with the 7730, folks seem to have problems with them. 

[Raydar]

To elaborate upon what Charlie posted... The disk type (3.4 Camaro) injectors have different operating characteristics from the pintle type (Fiero) injectors.
At higher RPMs, the disk type injectors are just fine, but the Fiero ECM can't control them reliably at low RPM.

Ron S posted a fairly detailed explanation, a while back, of what needed to be done to the programming, in order to make them work with a Fiero ECM, but it was (if I remember correctly) a set of parameters that I've never messed with. Seemed fairly complex. 

Also... it's a somewhat popular misconception that 88s all came with disk type injectors. I have heard that, as well.
That may have been true for a handful of cars, but not most. Every 88 that I've ever been into had the same injectors as the earlier cars. Pintle type.
To further add to the confusion, some of the 88 fuel injector harnesses had square plugs, although most of them had the same flat plug as the earlier cars. I wondered if there might be a correlation between the square-plug harness and the disk type injectors, but there was none to be found. They both appear to be random occurrences. (There was even speculation that GM ran out of pintle type injectors, late in production, and just threw in whatever was handy. THAT wouldn't surprise me a bit. Of course there was probably a good chance that they wouldn't idle correctly. But by then it was a customer/dealer problem.)