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Author Topic: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?  (Read 29027 times)

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slowburn57

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Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« on: September 18, 2011, 07:33:20 pm »
Have a 87 Fiero 2.5 iron duke coupe. Not having problems until recently. After running about 30 minutes it will just quit. not bucking or stumbling just quit. Sometimes if left over night will crank right back up. 122000 miles. I replaced the ICM, Coils and crank sensor yesterday. cranked up drove fine for 30 minutes then died quietly and won't crank. However if I jump the fuel pump at the "G" terminal in the console plug it will run fine. If I dont jump it the fuel pump doesn't run. Yes I changed the fuel pump relay and checked the fuse. Neither appeared to be bad and the old relay clicked and worked if I jumped the G terminal.

My question is can I hot wire the fuel pump through the G terminal using a toggle switch and not cause any damage to anything?

Fierofool

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 08:58:55 pm »
Anytime you need to hotwire something it means that something in the circuit is amiss.  Hotwiring may not solve the problem.  When the car quits, have you waited a moment with the ignition off, then turn it to the ON position to listen for the relay and pump?  If they both kick on, then it may be the throttle body injector beginning to fail. 

If the FP doesn't cycle, then jumper it at the ALDL.  Before jumpering, have your jumper wire ready, drive it until it quits, then install the jumper to see if the FP will start right back up.  If not, then you know that's the culprit.
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slowburn57

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 10:31:32 pm »
Thanks I wonder would hooking a jumper  to it damage the fuel pump? I have put a new Fuel relay in and has not helped. I have also jumped it at the ALDL terminal and through the oil sending unit and the pump came on. Could a bad oil sending unit cause the pump to not work?

HarryT

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 01:58:35 am »
I am not sure wether the Duke is injected or carbed.  If it is carbed and heaven forbid the engine stalls at idle, and you don't flip the switch fast enough you might possibly have to change your name to Fastburn. :o
Harry
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nightmare311

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 03:44:40 pm »
mines doing the same thing.
im getting no power on the green/white wire at the relay.

slowburn57

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2011, 04:20:22 pm »
I took some electronic spray cleaner and cleaned the relay terminal real good and plugged a new relay in and got the pump to work but now back to running about 30 minutes and then shutting off. I am going to take the console and glove box out and check all the terminals connecting to the ECM and see if that might be my problem. Leaning towards just replacing the ECM but want to see what the terminals look like first.

CowsPatoot

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 04:21:37 pm »
I am not sure wether the Duke is injected or carbed.  If it is carbed and heaven forbid the engine stalls at idle, and you don't flip the switch fast enough you might possibly have to change your name to Fastburn. :o
Harry

The duke is injected.  It has a throttle body injector that sits above the butterfly and spits fuel directly into it.

Quick answer...no, jumping the pin in the ALDL will not hurt anything.  By doing this, you are simply bypassing the the relay for the fuel pump.  But Fierofool is right...if this is resolving your issue, you are simply bypassing whatever is amiss.  Intermittent problems are the hardest to diagnose because all testing must be done while the problem is happening (in this case, while the engine won't run...so, before and after each test, see if it will start...if it does, the test is null and void).  I am making a couple assumptions here based on what you have said...if any of these are wrong, then the rest of what I say may not be accurate.
1.  Fierofool's test failed...fuel pump still wouldn't kick on after waiting a moment and then turning the key back on.
2.  The car is dying consistently after around 30 minutes (but not the exact same amount of time each round).
3.  Jumping the ALDL resolves the issue every time (and has been done several times...my motto is "Once is coincidence, twice is luck, three times sets the rule").
4.  We know the fuel pump is not running while we are having this issue, unless we jump the ALDL (which resolves the issue).
So...we know we are dealing with fuel pump wiring.  This tells me we are dealing with one of two issues.

1.  A broken wire (the orange one) prior to the fuel pump relay.  You said you checked the fuse, obviously that is the first step.  I would replace it anyway, but that is unlikely to be the issue.  Second step would be to check for voltage at the orange wire at the fuel pump relay WHILE IT WON'T RUN.

2. If there is voltage there, then we are actually dealing with two issues.  There is a secondary path for fuel pump power that bypasses the relay.  It runs through the oil pressure switch...as long as you have oil pressure, there should be power to the fuel pump through the secondary circuit.  You can check the oil pressure switch quickly by disconnecting the relay while the engine is running (normally, not with a jumpered ALDL)...if it dies, then you have a bad oil pressure switch.  Lets check that out first.  If the oil pressure switch is bad...although replacing it would resolve the issue of it dying on you, we are still bypassing the real issue, which would be in the area of the relay. Remember that all tests must be performed while it won't run. We already checked for power getting to the relay in step one (and you already checked the relay), so now we will check the other wires.

1. With the key in the run position, check for voltage at the Dk Green/White wire at the relay. This must be over 10 volts to flip the switch in the relay. This will confirm whether or not the ECM is telling the fuel pump to run.

2. Check for continuity from the tan/white wire at the relay to the fuel pump. This will determine if power can get from the relay to the fuel pump.  To make this easier, this test can also be done between the relay and the pin on the ALDL since we know power gets from the ALDL to the fuel pump when you jump it.

3. Check for continuity between the black wire at the relay and a solid ground in the car. Obviously, this will confirm the ground side of the switch.

I can't stress this enough...we must make sure you are still having the issue before and after each test...if you test one of the wires, and then it starts, then we need to wait till you are having the problem again and retest it.

nightmare311

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 05:43:56 pm »
found the problem on my car.. my ecm is bad. yours mite be the same

Raydar

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 06:14:51 pm »
[<snip>

This is a REALLY good write up!

Nightmare, Thanks for the update.
BTW... The only ECMs that will work as a direct replacement for yours are the 87 and 88 4 cylinder, with the same tranny.

There are some other cars that use this PCM (1227748) but you will need to swap in your Fiero's PROM.
...

slowburn57

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 11:55:50 am »
Yes it is THANKS everyone for helping. I took the console out yesterday and found that when I tap/knock the ECM while its still mounted the engine is effected.
 I am going to check all the connectors and grounds inside at the ECM. It seems that when certain plugs are wiggled it affects the engine. The good news is I had it running an hour last evening at temp and even tho it would shut off every now and then it cranked right up.
Could hear the Fuel pump everytime.
I have located a Cardone ECM. I will concider it after and if I find no problem with the harness plugs.
CowsPatoot Thanks I think that the problem my be with the ECM but I have saved the info provided.  and will keep looking.

jwrape

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 06:43:57 am »
It's always better to fix it correctly anyways. It took me a couple weeks to find my grounding issue as well. Now it runs great.
86GT Automaic 2.8L, 05, G35, 96 MZ3

slowburn57

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 10:01:39 am »
Well guys I bit the bullet and bought a Cardone 7748 ECM for my car. Chip came out and went in easily,I was concerned about that. Cranked it up and everything seems ok. No SEL light except when approperiate. Runs and drives fine. Have had it out for about one hour and a half and no problems. I'll give you and up date as I continue to drive it hopefully I have fixed this problem. THANKS for everyone help and input.

Now just have to find a dogbone that lasts. Have put two in recently and the rubber in both seem to sperate in the middle. Just seems more movement than I remember in the stock one. Wonder how a poly one would do.

Joe

Roger

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2011, 11:32:05 am »
Poly dogbones work very nice. Use plenty of the lubricant that comes with them.
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TopNotch

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Re: Fuel pump problem can I just hot wire it to a toggle switch?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 06:01:01 pm »
No lubricant came with either the poly dog bone I have on my 88, or the poly bushings in a stock dog bone on my 86, but there's no problem with either. I think you only need lubricant with suspension bushings that move.
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