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Author Topic: Building 3.4. What cam choice?  (Read 17686 times)

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f85gtron

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Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« on: March 15, 2016, 09:23:58 pm »
Which cam to get for 3.4 build. I have ported tb, reworked heads, exhaust logs, y pipe opened up, port matched stuff and thingys, Ron's Dawg mod intake, lots of breathing room..oh and hogged out intake bowles. 
What cam would make the most use of this?
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 06:02:51 am »
Crane H-272. Valve lift is .454 intake; .480 exhaust.
It probably requires machine work for valve spring clearance, to prevent coil bind. (There may be some springs that won't bind, but you'll need to research. I couldn't find any when I did mine.)
I used Comp roller tip rockers. 1.52 (stock?) ratio. Didn't spring for the full roller rockers.
 
If you don't want to deal with that, then the H-260 is probably the biggest cam that will fit. .427 intake; .454 exhaust.

Note that Comp Cams also advertises a "260" and a "272". They are not the same as the Crane.
The Comp pieces have equal intake and exhaust lift, while the Crane pieces have "staggered" specs, similar to the stock Fiero cam.  (Stock Fiero and 3.4 both have the same specs. .394 / .410, I believe.)

There was also an Isky cam with similar lift numbers to the H-272.

I used a Cloyes "true roller" timing set. It allowed the cam to be advanced or retarded, relative to the crank. I installed mine "retarded", to help with the top end, since the 3.4 has tons of torque. (I also had the heads and intake ported, headers and bored out throttle body, to help with the breathing.)

One of our former members built a similar engine, but he also had the heads milled for higher compression. As an alternative, you can use the 3.4 DOHC pistons.
The 272 cam calls for "higher compression", but I didn't do that, since it had always pinged with the stock cam. In retrospect, it probably wouldn't have hurt. After all the mods, I was able to run 10-12 degrees of initial advance and still run regular gas.

As always, YMMV.

Edit - I have a sheet, somewhere, that lists over a dozen cams for the iron head 60 degree V6. I'll see if I can find it. It's been a long time, however.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 06:08:57 am by Raydar »
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Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 09:38:54 pm »
Damn... I talk too much. Sorry for the verbal diarrhea.
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f85gtron

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2016, 05:01:06 pm »
Ok Raydar,
Help me out here.
If I want to keep options open to run turbo (low boost) later, run the 260, right?
If no turbo, then the 272?
I've been reading too much on the forums and that's what I understand, but my head's spinning, eyes glazed over....can't.....focus....
ALSO, the 260 is the same as the fiero cam?
I've also got 1.6 rockers, so what does that make it?  Maybe i should transfer my cam, lifters, heads over, since they're already broken in to each other?
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 01:56:34 pm »
The stock 3.4 cam and the stock Fiero cam are the same. Identical lift specs. .394/.410,  intake/exhaust. The 3.4 cam has an additional "tab" cast in, to trigger the cam position sensor.

The 260 is substantially "bigger", at .427/.454, I/E.
According to most sources, the 260 is about the most cam you can put in one of our engines (iron head 60* V6) without machine work to the valve spring pockets.
The 260 is also, by the way, the cam that came in the GM HT 3.4 crate motor (now out of production.)
Again, it should work without machine work to the heads.

The 272 has .454/.480 lift I/E. It will likely require machine work to the heads.

These numbers are all valve lift, using 1.5 rockers.
Strangely enough, adding 1.6 rockers to a 260 cam will yield the same lift numbers that the 272 provides. And the same coil bind issues.
It's better to use 1.5 (aka 1.52) rockers, and just install the cam that provides the specs that you want. The 1.6 rockers will place additional stresses (mechanical leverage) on the cam, lifters, and pushrods. I'm not sure how much of an issue that is, but if you're going to have everything apart anyway, I'd just go with the 1.5s.

Regarding a turbo...
I don't have any turbo experience, therefore no clue what cam works best with a turbo.
Nelson Thomson put a turbo on a pretty much (I think) stock 3.4, with a high flowing intake, and seems to be happy with it.

Edit - I'm guessing you're running a stock cam with 1.6 lifters? I did the same thing for a while. Made a difference, but not a huge one. This was on a 3.4.

If I've missed anything, let me know.
 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 01:59:56 pm by Raydar »
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f85gtron

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2016, 09:32:37 pm »
Sounds like a 272 is in my future.  I've seen so much crap on the forums that I'm confused. Thanks for leading me out of the woods.
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2016, 10:05:01 pm »
Good luck. It'll be fun!
You will likely need a "Dawg" upper intake (reworked stock Fiero) or a Trueleo, if you can find one.
The Trueleo looks like hell, but it flows like hell, too.
If you can find a set of FOCOA or Trueleo headers, jump on them.
The only other "sort of equal length" headers that I know of are West Coast Fiero, and they have produced "spotty" results. Cracks, and etc.

None of this stuff will be inexpensive.

This was mine, with the Trueleo intake and FOCOA headers.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 10:07:39 pm by Raydar »
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f85gtron

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2016, 06:06:59 am »
COOL, thanks.
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2016, 09:40:38 am »
I just saw a post from a friend of mine in Huntsville, who has FOCOA headers that he's willing to sell.
He wants $600 for them, and they need to be painted or coated. (I had FOCOAs on mine. The ones in the pic. I had to lengthen the crossover pipe by about 1/2". Never heard that complaint from others, however.)
YMMV.
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pgackerman

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 05:05:30 pm »
Raydar, Looks a bit tall. Did the deck close without modification?
Red '88 GT 5-Speed, 7730ECM, 1.6 Rockers, and KEYLESS Entry! 
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Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2016, 06:41:09 pm »
Well...
The far right end of just barely touched the underside of the decklid.
I had to take my cutoff wheel and remove the inner layer of fiberglass. (It's double skinned.)
(Later Trueleos were modified a bit, to eliminate this problem, which only was exhibited on notchbacks.)

Until I figured out what was happening, it sounded amazing, with the engine vibrating against the underside. The whole decklid resonated with the vibration. :D It shrieked like an F1 car.

And yes... it was that close to not touching. I wouldn't be surprised if some notchback cars didn't have the problem at all.

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f85gtron

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 06:44:06 am »
Ok. This off of ari's website:
"Crane PowerMax H-272-2      216   228   272   284   .454   .480   112   112
Good idle, daily usage, and off-road, towing, performance, and fuel efficiency.  Increased compression and gearing advised.  2600-3000 cruise RPM, 8.75-10.5 compression ratio advised.   Basic RPM 2000-5000."

So does the cruise rpm figure mean I should keep the 4speed Muncie in the car?  That's almost where it sits at highway speeds.
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Fierofool

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 10:26:58 am »
I know very little about cams but those cruise numbers were the first thing I noticed.  The 5-speeds usually cruise at about 2000-2300 rpm at highway speeds.  It could be that below the indicated speed that the engine just won't get full potential of the cam and it would react more like a stock cam.  Some info from Crane:    http://www.cranecams.com/view.php?s_id=5

When I replaced my boat engine, my now-deceased partner took my camshaft to a company that was southwest of Atlanta.  They made the cams used in the NASCAR engines.  I thought it was Crane, but may be mistaken.  They didn't have a profile on my camshaft, but used another camshaft to regrind to fit my needed profile.  Believe it or not, it was less than $100. 

Crane tech department or Summit who sells Crane cams, might be able to answer the question about the effect of the noted cruise speed. 
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Raydar

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 02:39:56 pm »
I had a Getrag in my car, for most of its time. I was happy with the gearing.
I had the Isuzu in there, for a bit, after I fragged the first Getrag. The Isuzu pulled like a train in 3rd gear. It's cruise RPM was a bit lower than the Getrag, however.
The main complaints I had about the Isuzu were the 1-2 split, and the likelihood that I was going to break it if I drove it the way I wanted. :D
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GTRS Fiero

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Re: Building 3.4. What cam choice?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 06:20:20 pm »
Well...
The far right end of just barely touched the underside of the decklid.
I had to take my cutoff wheel and remove the inner layer of fiberglass. (It's double skinned.)
(Later Trueleos were modified a bit, to eliminate this problem, which only was exhibited on notchbacks.)

Until I figured out what was happening, it sounded amazing, with the engine vibrating against the underside. The whole decklid resonated with the vibration. :D It shrieked like an F1 car.

And yes... it was that close to not touching. I wouldn't be surprised if some notchback cars didn't have the problem at all.

Why did you remove the inner layer of fiberglass?  Isn't ”amazing” better?