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Author Topic: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.  (Read 16084 times)

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GTXVette

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88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« on: July 16, 2017, 05:57:35 am »
   


  If there is a detailed answer please direct me to save youselves what could become a long Questionare. That said I belive I read they will swap out but what is the reasons to do so. also is there a 5 bolt pattern Hub to use so I can get a better Selection of wheel Sizes, that Goes for the rear also, My reason is the dude that sold me the "other" C4 has a set on a forth gen Camero that he thinks are 8.5 front and 10 or 11 x 17 rears with road race rubber on them. I seem to have some Spare C4 front end parts like Brakes and everything else that I can put on the Fiero,  rears also, Has this been done And/ or how do I do it.  I want to have as much Information onhand as I can Get.

Fierofool

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 07:36:31 am »
The major difference in the 88 brakes over prior years is the use of vented disks.  Earlier years had solid disks that were quicker to overheat and fade under the same conditions.  One of the popular upgrades is to install Grand Am calipers and disks.  Others have installed Corvette hardware and I think TopNotch has Cadillac rear apparatus on his 88. 
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2.    The few who learn by observation.
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GTRS Fiero

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 08:17:01 am »
You often lose your e-brake with brake upgrades, although that's the rear--not the front.

The '88 front suspension is not a direct swap, but allows for a tighter turning radius and more stable steering.  This in turn allows for the steering dampener to be removed, but requires a very different front end setup.  The '88s have a different steering rack, different wheel bearings/spindles, different ball joints, a different front cross-member, and longer tie rods.  I think the control arms are also different.

There used to be drop spindles available, but many people use cut springs or coilovers to lower their Fiero, to help handling.  I guess the important thing is knowing your intent and your budget.

Before swapping the earlier Fiero front end out for an '88, I'd choose something else.  '88 Fiero parts are getting hard to come by, and are still '80s technology.  Even then, the '88 Fiero was not the best handling car.  I'm not putting it down, but let's call it what it is.  The spindles won't stand up to heavy track use, and good replacements aren't available.  Personally, I'd pull the front from something like a '97 Firebird, maybe the rack from a Vue, and start there.

Of course, then you would HAVE to upgrade the rear suspension in a similar fashion, starting with a big sway bar, better brakes, better shocks, and basically the '88 setup.  R Runner used to sell an adjustable rear sway bar, but I believe he quit offering them.

With this type of setup, you would need different wheels, and low-profile tires.  Then you'd need venting from the hood, a bigger engine, and a better radiator.

It never ends.  You have to be very careful about upgrading just one end of the car--particularly something with a short wheelbase, like the Fiero.  The Fiero is very well balanced, also, so anything you do to one end of the car will upset that balance, and could be very dangerous.

TopNotch

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 09:22:32 am »
The major difference in the 88 brakes over prior years is the use of vented disks.  Earlier years had solid disks that were quicker to overheat and fade under the same conditions.  One of the popular upgrades is to install Grand Am calipers and disks.  Others have installed Corvette hardware and I think TopNotch has Cadillac rear apparatus on his 88.
The Cadillac brakes were on the rear of my 86 SE (Sold to my older brother, who in turn sold it to my younger brother). It consisted of Grand Am rotors, 85 Seville calipers, and brackets to hold the calipers from a Pennock's member.
Another difference in the 88 brakes over prior years is the use of iron calipers. The "give" of the aluminum calipers on the earlier years is one cause of their mushier feeling brakes.
The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play.

GTXVette

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 10:16:50 am »


    Thanks all, so to retain use of Factory Fiero Parts or what was just posted Is a lot of work for Not as much Increase For the useage I have Planned.  well According to WIKI the corvette is only a couple inches wider and about 3 inches longer than the Fiero, Before I PO Tha Driver,we had talked about putting a Fiero Body on a Shortened Vette Frame for a front engine Conversion. I am not at all Opposed to Cutting the whole Vette front off and Installing it under the Fiero, Plus I have some Jaguar 4 piston Brembo's that will Bolt to the front Caliper Brackets of the Corvette even though they are for the rear of a Jaguar, the jag. fronts are Just Plain HUGE and are for a 13" rotor and would need Brackets.   I ain't Skeered,but don't really Have acess to some of the Equipt. that I would need to do this work.

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 10:39:34 am »
Putting the 'Vette front end on the Fiero would be a HUGE undertaking.  And again, if you mess with one end...

GTXVette

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 11:45:21 am »
  GTRS, I was thinking Cut and Splice,  where can I find a picture of a Fiero frame Sans Body work and more Specifictly  a photo of the Bottom front, Minus body and even without the front suspension. the rear would likely require a later model than I have as mine uses u joints and the fiero is CV joints or even the whole front of a (say Cadillac) installed in the back.(because I can get one ) then just use the Norstar and auto tranny, thinking way ahead here but It came to mind. I even wondered why no one hasn't just Modified the Whole Cradle to Bolt in the Fiero Mount points?

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 01:01:38 pm »
Sometimes these modifications just aren't feasible. Also, most of what you're considering will cost more than $600, even if you do the work yourself and already have the tools.  There are people on PFF who have done everything reasonable to a Fiero, and a lot of unreasonable stuff.

Projects like this take years to get right.  Not just the planning, collection of parts, and build; there are lots of problems along the way with the build.  Sometimes, regulatory authorities get involved.  After everything is finally assembled, there are the inevitable failures, which often cost more money, take more time, and require disassembly/reassembly.  Worse yet, you have to go back to the drawing board.  Even huge car companies take years to design and build a given model, and the first year of a given model usually isn't that great.

What you're proposing is major work.  You'll need the financial resources for at least 3 times your expected costs, expect it to take at least 3 times longer than whatever you plan, you'll need all the knowledge and ability to do this.

I know of several people who could do this.  One went further, though, basically starting from the ground up.  He did not ask for or require help.  I don't know that he'd do it again.  The costs were high, but he had all the equipment and tools.  It took several years, and he had re-dos.  The others did some extreme things, but stopped shy of building from the ground up.

I'm not trying to shoot you down, but want you to have realistic expectations.  It's fine to dream and have one foot in the clouds, but you still need to keep a foot on the ground.

GTXVette

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 03:19:45 pm »
  Wow, sounds a lot like something I would tell a kid that Hasn't been off the porch.  I have been to A&P School(Air Frame and Power plant) Presently I help Maintain a Fleet of restored Classic and Muscle cars, I won the Championship at Senoia raceway in 91 in a car I built myself worked on Latemodel stock cars for over 20 years built multiple cars from parts to compleation and well I am going to stop here because I was trying not to reinvent the wheel but Shoutcut some Ideas with Knowledge from others that may have some Insight.Where you and others built Family's and Career's in the workplace I screwed with Cars. Raced and Chased fast women. I have Invited your Group to see what I do twice but no Takers. It's all good.  Thanks for the Help.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 04:01:15 pm by GTXVette »

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 04:00:07 pm »
I'm more than 8 hours away.

Fair enough.  I won't make any assumptions if you don't.  I would love to see you accomplish this.  The first step is to get your Fiero.

Just wondering, but you have to chase fast women?  I don't recall racing against any women, but it's possible.  I really only knew the winners and the people on my team.

Raydar

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 04:19:28 pm »
An 88 front end has been swapped. It's not a lot of fun, but it is do-able. Will on Pennocks did it. (I'll see if I can still find a link.)
As mentioned, the hubs are still the "weak link". Arraut motorsports makes drop spindles that use thru-bolted rear cartridges, instead of the rare and expensive fronts.

Another option for the front end - if you don't mind retaining the earlier geometry - is to adapt Corvair hubs. (Corvairs have the standard Chevy bolt pattern, IIRC.) I'm not sure exactly how this was done, but Bubba Joe on Pennocks did that one. (Again, I'll see if I can find it.) You'll find that whole thread interesting. It includes a longitudinally mounted Northstar with carbs and a Porsche transaxle. He also used Camaro or Corvette wheels on all 4 corners, but I forget how he did the rears.

Fieroguru also has 'vette wheels on his 88. I won't attempt to describe all the stuff he has done to his car (including an LS4/F40 swap) but if I were to "follow" any of the builders on Pennocks, he would be the one.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 04:48:45 pm by Raydar »
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GTXVette

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 04:33:54 pm »
  Older Wiskey, Younger woman, Faster cars,  I'll give you, that If it were not for you, this site would be DEAD. But do you really need to be so Condensending.  as a teem member we have over 100 wins in Late model on Asphalt and once with Gary Powell won 26 and 2 seconds in a 30 race season, I have raced against woman, Had a NASCAR Driver License, But blew my money on cars and Fun, still have some Pictures and lot's of memories. I would like to say I'm not Stupid but bantering with you here may prove me wrong.   See ya 'round.  Banished to the Pointless Forest, Me and my dog Arrow. Thank you Raydar for your last post, I'll Figure this one out.

Raydar

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 04:40:42 pm »
Here's Will's description of the 88 front swap. I really thought it was more detailed. Pics and stuff. Maybe it was a different user.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010116-2-004275.html

Here's the Bubbajoe thread. The Corvair hub swap is on page 9. (The first post of the thread indexes the entire thread. It's huge.)
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000007.html
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 04:45:41 pm by Raydar »
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Tha Driver

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 05:05:07 pm »
I would be willing to trade you anything you need from the wrecked (hit in l. side cowl) '88 that I have here for the 'Vette frame/suspension. Really just need the 'Vette suspension for my Z car. You could take the whole car home with you & bring back the engine (if you don't need it), gas tank, & what's left of the spaceframe/car. I'd kinda like to cut the front, rear, & l. rocker from the spaceframe in case I need them to repair a wreck, but you could keep whatever you might need. That way you'd have ALL the '88 suspension/cradles/drivetrain to swap into your car.
OR, I could swap you the '88 coupe & you could transfer all your parts to it without having to swap or fabricate mounts (I think the front cradle swap requires mounts for the rearward braces & the '88 rear cradle swap into earlier model requires relocating the top of the struts). No gas tank in it but you could have the tank from the wreck. Oh wait I sold the rear cradle from the coupe, so you'd need that from the wreck too.
Either way you'd be way ahead in the suspension department...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

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GTRS Fiero

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Re: 88 front suspension and brake upgrades vs. early cars.
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 05:31:12 pm »
Sorry.  I didn't mean to take out the frustrations with my car on you.  I'm a nobody, and still learning.  When I set out to race, gender wasn't a concern.  There were other cars.  We raced.  Somebody won.  Until they got out of the car and took off their helmet, who knows?

Fieroguru is one of the PFF members of whom I was thinking.