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Author Topic: 60-degree V6?  (Read 19604 times)

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GTXVette

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2017, 10:07:58 am »
 well that raises another question,  90Deg. OR 60deg. and will that bolt in the same as a 3.4 from a camero ? and do any FWD  GM Engines just bolt in with maybe a starter re location.  O K 3 questions.

fiero4.3L

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2017, 02:28:27 pm »
That's a lot of items that might swap between a 4.3V6 and an LT1.  Wouldn't the list of non-swapping items be shorter?

The Blazer had a 2.8 in it, for some years, and was underpowered.  My Blazers had the 4.3, and were fine.  I had an Impala with a 3.8, and it was peppy, but not a patch on the Impala with the supercharged 3.8 or the Impala SS with the 5.7.  I think the 4.3 is a slower engine than the 3.8, because the Blazer was slow with a 4.3, compared to the Impala with a 3.8.

I guess a 4.3 V8 would have more power strokes per RPM, and some of the Caprices were quick, but I'd prefer the 5.7.  The 5.3 V8 is noticeably slower than the 5.7 Tahoe.

Power to weight ratio and torque multiplication through gearing are major factors in what makes a vehicle seem fast or slow. Trucks usually have a wide variety of axle ratios to choose from that make a night and day difference in performance and mpg.
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fiero4.3L

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2017, 02:44:14 pm »
I'm just curious of the benefit of the 4.3 in a Fiero.  Not dissing your build, but if the block is heavier, and you're going for MPG, and you don't want performance, couldn't you get better MPG, good performance, and a lighter car with a 3.4 and a good transmission?  I would guess that f85gtron can get 30 MPG.

It isn't that simple. Engines have an rpm range where BSFC is lowest. This is typically around the torque peak rpm. Operation outside this area burns more fuel. If the engine is modified to improve power at higher rpms, this can increase the BSFC at the torque peak.

Forced induction engines have a higher bsfc than normally aspirated and diesels have a lower bsfc than na.

The point is, for a specific power and torque output, it is best to use an engine that provides close to that in a stock form if minimum bsfc is desired. There are a lot of ways to reach a number like 30 mpg and I'm sure F85gtron could do that. It is all a compromise.

Having said all that, remember this was nearly 20 years ago. Back then, there wasn't much information online for car guys. The basic browser and search engine was only a few years old. Before that you had to find boards. When broswer came out I thought, great, now everybody is going to be online :( . My point is it was not common knowledge that the 3800 and 4.9 would swap. Had I known, I would have just used one of those and saved a lot of money so here I am, making the most of it. ;D
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fiero4.3L

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2017, 02:56:34 pm »
well that raises another question,  90Deg. OR 60deg. and will that bolt in the same as a 3.4 from a camero ? and do any FWD  GM Engines just bolt in with maybe a starter re location.  O K 3 questions.

Only the 90 degree 4.9 v8 and 3.8 v6 have the metric v6-60 pattern as far as I know. The fiero is a fwd drivetrain from a chevy citation and most any gm fwd v6 up to the mid-90s I believe will swap. On a related note, S10 transmissions and bellhousings are often used to convert the fwd v6s to rwd for use in MGs and Triumphs.

For a manual, unless you want a custom flywheel, I'd stick with a v6-60 such as a 3400 from a mid 90s fwd van or just rebuild the 2.8 with 3.1 parts for more displacement but I don't remember all the details but can look it up if you are interested.

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GTXVette

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2017, 03:52:14 pm »
      thanks,   the car in Jax. already has a 1994 3.4 camaro engine but  also has the aluminum  buick Heads not sure if they are 3.1 or 3.3 heads but requested that info, it also has a turbo and was running until it blew the head Gasket.

 I know 1 combo of that engine/ heads will get 8 to 1 Compression and another gets above 10 to 1 now I am sure the Builder knew this when he decided to Turbocharge this engine ,I just don't know the Part numbers used yet and if the pistons were changed to hopefully Forged pistons. I'll figure that out when I pull the Heads to do the Gaskets and also find out the cam used.  When it is paid for I should have plenty of time for repairs and to get laps in Somewhere to make it reliable. 

you mention the caddy?4.9 V8 FWD is metric BP and then refrence a 3.8 V-6, Is that a FWD 3.8 Or a RWD and are the both of them Metric(60deg.v-6) BP. Like the Grand National Buick used a 200R4 trans and I think that was a Metric also Or was that BOP

 I am confused because I had a 455 Buick in a Skylark that I installed a 200R4 in and it says Metric on the Tranny Pan,we know the 455 wasn't Metric anything.

 I don't recall seeing a 3.8 swap but 3.4's seem common. the 90Deg has Lots of performance upgrades availible  but not so much for the 3.4

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2017, 04:58:22 pm »
Yeah, I remember the modems that used the telephone handsets, and the Amiga computers.  I remember upgrading to a computer that used a cassette tape for storage and had 4K of RAM.  Punch cards were on their way out, but I remember pushing carts of them around.  I remember Dynabook.  I remember the many message boards, and the start of the internet.  I remember the beginnings  of Prodigy, AOL, INN, etc.  I remember mainframes the size of a room, with python cables as big as my leg.  I remember computers running on relays and vacuum tubes, and the transition from dumps to actual displays.  I remember the IBM 3-sickly.  I remember the first home PCs, buying computer parts individually, DIP switches, and spider-RAM.  I remember when the keyboard, serial, and disk I/O required full-length expansion cards.  I remember changing from non-programmable BIOS to programming with infrared.  I remember dot-matrix printers, and monitors with knobs.  I remember 8-inch floppy drives and full-height drives.  I remember 10Mb hard drives, MFM, RLL, and SCSI-1.  I remember the XT, the C32, the TRS-80, and the PC, jr.  I remember Wenden DOS, and the college kid who invented the herc-mono video card.  I remember CGA.  I remember the various user groups.  I remember programming in assembly.  I remember cartridge-BASIC and ROM BASIC.  I remember Desqview, and the INTUIT word processor.  I remember bus networking via BNC.  I remember the first computer mouse.  I remember when the C language was created, so UNIX could be written.  I remember the early days of Microsoft.  I remember OS/2.  I remember the start of the WWW, and the early RFCs.  I remember the development of HTML and DHTML.  I remember MUDs and MOOs.  I remember when Microsoft released Windows 1.0.  I remember before Google and MSN and Yahoo and Amazon and YouTube.  I remember 8-track, and reel-to-reel.  I remember the development of the TCP suite.  Sorry for the tangent.

I also remember that many people had actual car knowledge.  They could look at pistons and tell you what they came out of.  They didn't rely on manuals or the internet.  People like this are rare, now.  Exhaust was bent from straight pipes.  I'm not putting down anyone on here, but getting parts at a dealership now is an exercise in frustration.  The first person who does a given swap, like you, still has much to figure out the hard way.  That's why many shops won't do this work.

I'm curious what intake you have on your 4.3.  The 3.4 would suffer from moving the power to the upper RPMs, where ot can't breathe, unless using a better intake.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 09:08:38 pm by GTRS Fiero »

fiero4.3L

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2017, 06:55:41 pm »
You remember a lot!

The intake is a stock 1985 astrovan iron intake for a quadrajet 4 barrel carburetor. As you can see it is very tall.


Here is the intake I described before that will be going on eventually.

Here is some more info on the engine and a basic build up:
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/113_0208_chevy_43l_262ci_v6_engine_build/
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Raydar

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2017, 07:03:36 pm »
      thanks,   the car in Jax. already has a 1994 3.4 camaro engine but  also has the aluminum  buick Heads not sure if they are 3.1 or 3.3 heads but requested that info, it also has a turbo and was running until it blew the head Gasket.

If it's the 3.4 Camaro engine, and has aluminum heads, they will have to be V6-60 heads. 3100, 3400, or early 3500. (3.3 heads were 90 degree, and will not fit.)
Those heads, with the stock Camaro pistons, will result in absurdly high compression ratios. ~12:1, I think.
OTOH, The iron 2.8/3.4 heads on a FWD 3400 will result in ~7.5 compression. 
By the way... the 2.8 EFI, - including S10 and Fiero - and the 3.4 Camaro cast iron heads are identical. That also includes the heads that came on the carbureted Citation X11.  All other carbed 2.8 heads were probably the same casting, but were machined for smaller valves. 
 
Quote
I know 1 combo of that engine/ heads will get 8 to 1 Compression and another gets above 10 to 1 now I am sure the Builder knew this when he decided to Turbocharge this engine ,I just don't know the Part numbers used yet and if the pistons were changed to hopefully Forged pistons. I'll figure that out when I pull the Heads to do the Gaskets and also find out the cam used.  When it is paid for I should have plenty of time for repairs and to get laps in Somewhere to make it reliable. 

you mention the caddy?4.9 V8 FWD is metric BP and then refrence a 3.8 V-6, Is that a FWD 3.8 Or a RWD and are the both of them Metric(60deg.v-6) BP. Like the Grand National Buick used a 200R4 trans and I think that was a Metric also Or was that BOP

 I am confused because I had a 455 Buick in a Skylark that I installed a 200R4 in and it says Metric on the Tranny Pan,we know the 455 wasn't Metric anything.

 I don't recall seeing a 3.8 swap but 3.4's seem common. the 90Deg has Lots of performance upgrades availible  but not so much for the 3.4

The "metric" bellhousing apparently came on the 3800 FWD and the 95 and later 3800 F body blocks.

I found some info about the 200R4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic

THM200-4R
For the 1981 model year, the 200-4R (sometimes called 200R4) was introduced. The components which were prone to failure in the THM200 were improved, and in the later 80's this transmission was used with high-power applications — primarily the Buick Grand National and the 1989 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Indy 500 Pace cars. The 200-4R was configured with several different torque converters and gear ratios depending on the vehicle application.

Unlike the 700R4, most 200-4Rs have a multicase bellhousing for use with Chevrolet, Buick/Olds/Pontiac (BOP), and Cadillac engines. However, 200-4Rs share mounting locations with the TH-400. Since the external dimensions are similar to the TH-350 (overall length, drive shaft yoke spline count/diameter and general size), 200-4Rs are often swapped in place of TH-350s in older vehicles to provide an overdrive gear.

The THM200-4R can be found in the following vehicles:

1981-90 B-Bodies
1981-84 C-Bodies
1984-88 G-Bodies
1985-90 D-Bodies
1981 Pontiac Firebird (with 301cid engine, non-turbo)
1989 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Indy Pace car (with Buick V6 and a Turbocharger)
The THM200-4R was phased out after 1990; its final usage was in the GM B-body vehicles.


With all of that said, there is one other engine that has the "metric" bellhousing. That's the LS4 V8 that came in the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP.
It came with a specific 4T65E automatic, that mounted the starter "backwards" on the trans, instead of on the block. A few have been swapped into Fieros, but it's complicated and expensive to do it.


So for the "metric" bellhousing.... (Not to be confused with the "200R4 'metric'") you have the pushrod V6-60. All of them; The later 3800; the 4.5 and 4.9 Caddy V8s (not sure about the 4.1, but nobody really cares :D ); and the LS4.
Oh yeah... And the Northstar V8 and "Shortstar V6" - sort of. (One mounting hole is relocated.)

Edit - Wow... Sorry for the verbal diarrhea.
 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 07:13:06 pm by Raydar »
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GTRS Fiero

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2017, 07:04:59 pm »
How long did the swap originally take you?

I guess my memories are wordy.  My point was that I remember the advent of the internet, and the change from before to after, as well as the changes in computers and how they have impacted our lives.

GTXVette

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2017, 08:21:38 pm »
 Thanks for the memories..... the First Bank of Ga.'s first Computer took Two floors of Space around early 70's. before that though I applied to a place called Control Data a school for computer education, I took their test and passed and was accepted for school,but then they found out I hadn't graduated High School yet and said NO. then Vietnam bacame the Place to go, Ya'll know how that went.

 raydar, so the 96 up 3.8 90 deg v-6 will bolt in sorta,? is that the same as a 3800 engine. I mean they have some 3.8 GN's making 700+ HP, so parts are there.

    Yes the car has the buick 3400 ? heads but I don't have the Part Numbers and I had been told one version did keep the Compression lower but not sure any more. I guess that means it most likely has a piston set to lower the Comp.

Losing the Blazer as a parts car Hurt my Finances more than I thought it would, and It will be about Christmas before my SS checks can pay it off, but what the heck,  they do it every year and next year I can spend another dollar on it.  L O L:)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 08:41:16 pm by GTXVette »

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2017, 09:07:10 pm »
Well, you know you'll have a Merry Christmas, anyway.

fiero4.3L

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2017, 06:59:38 am »
How long did the swap originally take you?

I guess my memories are wordy.  My point was that I remember the advent of the internet, and the change from before to after, as well as the changes in computers and how they have impacted our lives.

I don’t recall how long it took, but I was in no hurry and enjoy problem solving. The initial installation to driveable wasn’t long but it took much longer to sort out the issues of exhaust to starter clearance, starter to oil filter adapter clearance, rain and water corroding the alternator internally due to its location, air cleaner clearance, coolant routing, access for maintenance, and a solution for controlling the torque reaction of the engine. Some of these issues were unique to the v6 so the sbc swappers didn’t have them when using the kit but they had solid mounting and chassis cutting requirements for the longer engine.

I found some weights I’d measured with the 4.3 at 380 lbs, a v6-60 at 345 lbs and a 4.9 about the same as the v6-60. Sbcs are around 500 lbs. 
Thanks Raydar. I’d forgotten about those other engines and completely missed GTX’s post.
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Raydar

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2017, 09:36:29 am »
...
 raydar, so the 96 up 3.8 90 deg v-6 will bolt in sorta,? is that the same as a 3800 engine. I mean they have some 3.8 GN's making 700+ HP, so parts are there.

The Camarobird 3.8 is called a 3800. I would expect them to be similar. But I really don't have any idea whether it will bolt into a Fiero.
Of course people are plugging in 3800 SC engines, out of FWD W bodies, on a regular basis. I have also seen pics of a SC'd 3800 in a Camaro. So I have to believe there's some commonality, somewhere.

The 3.8 / 3800 has gone through some major changes over the years. I wouldn't count on anything from "Grand National" vintage being able to be used in a Fiero.
Wikipedia has a really detailed dissertation on the GM 3800, including all(?) the changes. I'll post a link later on. I'm at work now. Need to be busy.
 
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GTXVette

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2017, 10:24:42 am »
  Thanks, I looked there , basics seem the same but  sizes and changes are all over the place.

GTRS Fiero

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Re: 60-degree V6?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2018, 09:40:54 am »
Fiero4.3?  Haven't heard from you for a bit.  All good?