Handling issues, 86SE

[GTRS Fiero]

OK.  What is the handling problem on Fierofool's 86SE?  We've beat around the bush on this for over a year.

I'm not sure if the brake issues and sway bar changes were on this car or not.



Is the issue with the rack, as suggested?

[Fierofool]

I haven't had the time or money to get into it.  I can drive it without any problems, and it drives very well, even on the interstate.  I do need to keep both hands on the wheel because if I hit some berms in the roadway, it wants to jump around.  But if I want to hit a good curve or two, I have to slow down.  It still tends to want to come around quickly in a left turn.  If I had to make a quick evasive maneuver, I might be in trouble. 

The rack is about the only thing that hasn't been replaced.

[GTRS Fiero]

Funny we used the same pic.

[Fierofool]

The car had a sway bar on it when I got it.  It had one at the time that picture was taken.  It had just gotten or was about to get it's new engine.  Because of the handling problems, Lee checked out the suspension and found some ball joints were in horrible condition.  They were replaced, but the handling didn't really improve. 

The sway bar was mounted to the rear of the cradle.  The white 86 in the background had a sway bar also but it was mounted at the front of the cradle.  There was a vast difference in handling, so Lee removed my sway bar to see if that was the issue.  It didn't help anything. 

I had taken the car home and was gradually trying to diagnose the problem when I found that one of the new NAPA ball joints was coming apart.  It might have had only a couple hundred miles on it at most.  So it got replaced by a Dickman ball joint. 

In the meantime, Lee had a falling out with the club and I couldn't get my sway bar back from him so I continued trying to find solutions to the handling.  I sent the car over to AeroDonamic to have new control arm bushings and rear struts installed because we found the right rear strut was a piece of sponge. 

I secured a sway bar and began the process of doing a front cradle mount on it and that's where my progress is at the moment.  I know all the rear suspension is good.  The front suspension would be the next suspect, but I don't know what part it would be.  Memory tells me that the rack is the only thing that hasn't been replaced. 

[GTRS Fiero]

Thinking about this, it seems like something must be wrong in the rear.  I'm more prone to being wrong than the next guy, so feel free to correct me, but here is my reasoning.  If you are steering straight and the car goes straight, it's aligned properly.  The rear of the pre-'88's is squirrely over bumps.  If you are turning, and want to bring the rear end around, you step on the accelerator, which causes the inner rear wheel to force the car around.  If the car demonstrates issues when hitting bumps, that means that the suspension is unloading, changing geometry.  When you make a left turn, the wheel edges on the outside of the turn do the turning.

It would be interesting to see what happened with the rear end under some loads.  For example, while the car is parked, push on each side above the rear tire.  Then, park on an incline, apply the service brake, put the car in gear, and put it under a load.  Have an observer watch the rear wheels.  Next, test the rear suspension both with and without a load.

I'm trying to remember a thread I read about this, a while back.  You can check the rack, easily enough, but I'd suspect the right rear.  Probably an inner tie rod end.

AeroDon did put the hats on the rear struts, right?

I'm also curious about your cradle mount bushings and the transmission mounts.

You may have 2 issues.  To me, the squirrely is in the rear.  If the car is darty, that would be the front.  My wife had in issue that cropped up after rotating the tires.  I replaced the tires, and the issue went away.  Being an '86, you could easily rotate the tires.

[Fierofool]

The last time I had it aligned, it came back like this.  He said he couldn't get it into alignment.  He also removed the bolts for the strut to knuckle and replaced them with standard bolts.  I've checked them and they haven't moved, so that isn't part of the problem. 



I haven't checked the rear inner tie rod bushings, but the tie rod ends have been replaced.  There is no play in any of the wheels, top to bottom or front to rear, except at the front.  The car exhibits the same tendencies that one of our previous cars had.  Going into a curve it would take the intended line.  If the curve was sharp, it would suddenly cut deeper into the curve, causing the rear to want to swing out.  Turns out it was the ball joints on the front were worn. 

We looked at the cradle mount bushings at Mike's shop and initially thought there was some room for play, though there wasn't any indication of movement.  Upon later comparison with another Fiero, I saw that the spaces we saw were common.   

I haven't checked the rack or it's coupling to the column because it's too low to get my jack underneath the front.  And, I can't rotate the tires because it has staggered sizes.  The front tires are 45 series and the rear are 40 series.  The rear tire hardly clears the strut spring boss, so the taller 45 would rub. 

It originally had Eibach springs on it, but those were removed and replaced with what was supposed to be stock springs, but the car rides very solid and stiffly.  There's not much travel. 

I have a set of Pacer 17" wheels and I've given thought to getting some used tires and changing out to some more standard size tires.  Don had them on his 86 at one time. 

I'm sure Don put the hats on the struts.  There wasn't much difference in the ride other than the floppy right rear was gone after he installed the new ones. 

[GTRS Fiero]

I don't think I'd use Fierestone for an alignment on a Fiero.  Some of those specs appear to be worse after alignment than they were before.

With those specs, the left rear tire will get a better bite in left turns, and is pointing to the right, which would steer you a bit to the right, although it shouldn't be more than an annoyance.  The left caster would probably emphasize this, but still, it shouldn't be anything dramatic.

There must have been something that happened to the right rear that made it worse than the left side.

[Fierofool]

That was the last alignment it had.  The "Before" setup was done by the local shop that replaced the bolts in the rear struts.  Firestone actually did a good job on my 87.

Immediately after another local tire store told me they couldn't align the rear without taking the rear wheels off, then if they took the wheels off, they couldn't attach the alignment devices, so bottom line, they couldn't align a Fiero without some special equipment that they didn't have.  They also told me that my new adjustable front ball joints were bad and that my front tie rod ends and wheel bearings needed to be replaced.  I drove straight over to Firestone and got an alignment.  Handling did improve some, but still not up to par. 

[TopNotch]

If it was my car, I'd monkey with it myself. First, I'd check the tow with string, like in this post. Then I'd check the camber with a level held against each wheel.
I'm guessing they were talking about the rear camber when they said they couldn't do it with the wheel on. Well, take the wheel off, change it, and put the wheel back on and measure. I actually did that on my yellow car.

[Fierofool]

These wheels give more access to the camber bolts than the stock wheels.  I'm glad they didn't make an attempt, seeing as how they misdiagnosed good parts as being in need of replacement.  I think they either didn't want to mess with a rear engine car or they just didn't know what they were doing. 

[GTRS Fiero]

When a shop tells me something is bad, I expect proof.  Either somebody is wrong, or somebody is misinformed.  The facts will prove somebody's case, one way or another.

I'd still look at the rear end.

[TopNotch]

It is my opinion that the main problem is the camber -- the difference between sides. I think it is more important for both sides to be the same, or nearly the same, than it is for them to be exactly in spec.

[GTRS Fiero]

I would agree that both sides should be the same.  One side is almost double the other side.  It's a good starting point.

[Fierofool]

When I get a little extra cash, I'll give MikeMac a go at it with his new alignment machine.  Right now, we have some huge medical bills what with my full body CT scan and Melanie's hospital stay.  We're also starting a new year with our insurance, so minimum deductibles need to be met before they pay for our meds.

[GTRS Fiero]

It looks as if you have a year to get the handling issues resolved in time for the Don Hulse Cruise.