Trueleo Intake Help

[86FIFI]

I am thinking about purchasing the Trueleo Intake from someone, so my concern is what do I need to get from them to make the manifold bolt up to my system? Just the manifold? Also he said his is without the EGR, is it good or bad to do an EGR delete? Also, from what I have understood it is better to keep the EGR functional. If so, how would I incorporate it into a Trueleo Intake manifold without the EGR setup on it? Possible?

[cogcaviz24]

from what i read, with the EGR you should 1 or 2 more MPG without it a hair more performance. but to completely delete the EGR, you have to have the ECM reprogrammed to ignore the EGR engine code(32).

but I'm not sure if an EGR delete is required for the Trueleo intake

[Fierofool]

Raydar on this forum has a Truleo on his car.  He's pretty familiar with it's function and performance.  Maybe he'll chime in.  Or if not, send him a PM.

Some say that removal of the EGR can burn a piston while others report they've had no issues after removing the system. 

[TopNotch]

Trueleo intakes are available with or without EGR. If you're buying a used one without EGR, perhaps it can be modified to add EGR. Go to their website, click on the contact link, and ask if it can be converted.

[86FIFI]

You are correct about the, coming with or without EGR, and the EGR part is welded on by them. Someone mentioned tapping into the Intake to hook up the EGR, or I could go with the 7730 swap which I plan to do anyway, but first I wanna drive this thing! I contacted Troy (Trueleo) about this and he said "why would you want exhaust gas in the intake?". So in his opinion EGR delete is the way to go but to you guys and many other Fiero owners it is not a good idea. I personally dont know which is why I'm asking the question. I also posted the question on Pennocks.

[Fierofool]

Why would you want exhaust gas in the intake?  Well, it's called EGR for Exhaust Gas Recirculation.  Whenever you decelerate, you have a lot of unburned gas going into the atmosphere.  To meet federal clean air standards, the automotive engineers devised several methods.  One of the most readily recognized is the catalytic converter.  It converts exhaust gases to water vapor and retains the harmful solids.  Another is EGR.  It only works upon deceleration.  The resulting vacuum opens the EGR valve and pulls some of the unburned gases back into the intake and burns them again to help achieve a cleaner environment.

Not saying that you would 'want' exhaust gases in your intake, but it really doesn't hurt  anything, but it was effective enough that most every car on the road has some type of recirculation system. 

[TopNotch]

This Wikipedia explanation of what EGR does is pretty good. Some say that the higher combustion temps you get without it are not good for your pistons.
If you do the 7730 swap, you'll still need EGR (with a digital valve) unless you program it out.
Personally, if I had your Trueleo intake, I'd do a home-made EGR input on it. How hard can it be? It's just a hole in the intake to mount an EGR tube on.

[Raydar]

Wow. I missed this.
I had a Trueleo with EGR on my car. The car was recently sold, however.

First...
If you have to get your car smogged, you want EGR. It'll be a PITA to get it to pass without it.
If you don't have to pass emissions, it's pretty much your call. If you delete or bypass the EGR, you should have it disabled in the programming.

When the EGR is commanded on, the ECM also throws in a bunch of spark advance and leans the fuel mixture waaay down.
Usually, that's a recipe for a bunch of ping (knock, spark rattle, whatever you want to call it.)
The introduction of the burned exhaust actually helps the fuel charge to burn cooler and slower. (Sounds like a contradiction, I know. But it's true.) It does this simply by diluting the mixture. The exhaust is, for our purposes, "inert".  
Without the exhaust dilution, but with the lean fuel and advanced timing, the combustion temps go waaay up. Over time, it can (but not necessarily "will") burn pistons. It doesn't happen overnight, however.

The Trueleo pretty much comes with everything you'll need, except gaskets, and the occasional vacuum tube or hose.
It comes with a handful of hex bolts to bolt the the thing to your lower intake, and two allen-head bolts for the ends, where the clearance isn't so good.
I chose to replace all of the hex bolts with allen bolts. Makes it much easier to install (you'll need a ball-end allen wrench) and looks much neater.

When I first got my Trueleo (it was probably about the 2nd or 3rd one sold) the flange plate was slightly warped. I had to deck it with a belt sander. This was probably an early production issue, but it bears checking. (I've never heard anyone else complain, so it's probably a huge non-issue.) If you do this, be sure to clean it out thoroughly.

Good luck. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask.
If I don't see your post here, shoot me an email.

Edit - I just realized that you're buying a used one. Not a big deal. A lot of the plumbing and stuff has already been done for you.
This is what mine looked like, installed. Not exactly pretty, but quite functional.

 

[86FIFI]

Good info Raydar, Trueleo did contact me and say if I wanted the EGR piece seperate they could make it for me for $75, but they said somethign about it fitting funny and I might have to bend my EGR tube (which could risk breaking it). I dont really care to spend that money seems like a waste to me, I dont see why I cant make a homemade EGR port like someone mentioned before. I dont have emmissions tests and will be removing my catalytic converter soon. Drove the Fiero for the first time today. I would unbolt the EGR at the Y-pipe, and put a piece of sheet metal with holes drilled in the sides of it to bolt it down to cap the port. Then I would put a screw, or cap on the vacuum line that goes to the EGR solenoid. Not really removing the whole EGR setup.

[Fierofool]

If you do install the Truleo and remove the EGR valve, don't use sheet metal as a block plate.  Use plate steel.  The exhaust temps at that point are near their highest and will probably burn through sheet metal in time.  Someone used to make an EGR delete block off plate, but I can't find it on the web.  With a good bench grinder and stone wheel, you could probably grind down a piece of 1/4 inch angle iron to make your plate.  Sheet metal might work if you left the EGR valve in place, removed the tube and covered the port where the tube bolts up.  That way you could leave all the other EGR tubes and solenoids in place.  I don't know that the ECM would know the gasses aren't passing back into the intake. 

I saw on PFF that someone said removing the vacuum line from the EGR solenoid to the valve had no effect because it wasn't a ported vacuum.  They are wrong.  The EGR solenoid is electro-pneumatic and has 2 vacuum ports.  One coming from the engine intake.  When the ECM triggers the solenoid, it allows the vacuum to pass through to open the EGR valve.  I can tell you that if you have a hole in the diaphragm of the EGR valve or a break in the EGR vacuum line, it will set a trouble code because you've broken the vacuum. 

[Tinton]

I don't see how its an issue. As Charlie said, EGR only works when the car's decelerating. If you've got a manual Fiero, then its supposed to have DFCO. That means if its in gear above 1800RPM, with no throttle input (full vacuum) its supposed to stop firing the injectors and just let the engine turn with the transmission/wheels. At 1800RPM the idle picks back up and it starts firing the injectors again. You can feel it if you engine-brake in a manual Fiero, it'll buck slightly at 1800RPM, that's DFCO turning off and the the idle picking back up. With DFCO there shouldn't be any fuel entering the engine at all, its just air with residual fuel from the lower intake, and some exhaust gasses if you have functional EGR. I don't know why it doesn't run hot and/or doesn't knock, I'm guessing its because as the engine decelerates there's no load on it, and it might also be because there's no A/F charge to ignite.

It might cause problems with an automatic Fiero though. There's no DFCO so on deceleration it might depend on EGR to balance out the A/F ratio. Even then there's no load on the engine so I don't think it'd knock that bad, or burn a piston.

Charlie, are you sure EGR only works when the car decelerates? I thought it was supposed to be functional at all times, to add a little bit of exhaust to the A/F mix going into the engine to get better gas mileage and reduce emissions. Does it only work on deceleration because when you lift off the gas some unburned fuel enters the exhaust and having it rerouted to the intake reduces emissions?

Personally, I think EGR is useless. My '86 Fiero passed emissions without a functional EGR valve, and I didn't even have to play with the timing or tune. I'm pretty sure its something engineers came up with to make it look like they're making cars more efficient....when it really doesn't do much of anything, besides maybe lower NOx emissions slightly.

[Fierofool]

Your question made me wonder.  I checked my Haynes and it seems to indicate that the EGR valve might be pulsed open during normal operation with it being fully opened during deceleration.  It is also open anytime during warm operation or when the engine is above idle speed.  The valve actually lowers combustion temps by recirculating the exhaust gases.  The amount of opening is controlled by variations in vacuum and exhaust backpressure. 

I guess that with the EGR removed/blocked, it would increase cylinder temps, thus the reference to the occasional burned piston.  Believe me, the automotive engineers don't put anything on a car that isn't needed.  Right down to a simple bolt. 

Personally, if I could fit it with EGR, I would.   

[Raydar]

EGR is used mostly at part throttle cruising speeds and part throttle acceleration. It is not used at WOT. (This is the reason everyone says that it won't hurt 1/4 mile times and such.) I have never heard of EGR being used during closed throttle decel. (At least in the V6, it runs off of ported vacuum. Ported vacuum is only active during part throttle operation.)
Having said all that...
When EGR is on, less fuel is injected, and more spark advance is used. This is programmed right into tables in the chip. The benefits are cleaner operation and better fuel ecnomy.
Just removing the EGR and faking out the ECM so that the light doesn't come on (i.e., it thinks that it's still working) will cause too lean and over advanced operating conditions. This is what causes the pistons to burn.  
It can be safely removed from an engine, but accommodations must be made to the tune. It's usually done by setting the "EGR enable" temperature to some astronomical number that will never be reached. Maximum scale is around 350 degrees.
If that number is never reached (and it won't be without things melting down) the EGR will never be commanded "on", and the "EGR on" fuel and spark tables will never be accessed.
The "Code 32" (EGR) flag is usually disabled too, but even if it isn't, it should never occur without the EGR being commanded "on".
If I didn't have to pass emissions, I wouldn't hesitate to disable EGR in any Fiero engine that I had. It's just got to be done correctly.
(For off-road use only.... Right? :p )
  

[Fierofool]

There are 3 types of EGR as explained in the Haynes manual.  I'm not sure what type or combination the Fiero uses, but it referred to the EGR system working at part throttle and at deceleration.  I assumed that it was describing the Fiero system.

[TopNotch]

The V6 Fieros use a vacuum operated EGR, and the vacuum is controlled by the EGR solenoid. The 4-cylinder Fieros use a vacuum and back pressure operated EGR, and there is no electronic control involved.